Handling Tough Conversations through Compassionate Communication

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Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings, but what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson.

Renee Thompson:
Hi everyone! Welcome to another episode of Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson, and it is so great to be with you all today. I am beyond excited that we're going to have our very first guest, and that is Diane Salter. Diane is the director of surgical services at a hospital in Pennsylvania, my home state. However, I left my home state about four and a half years ago to come here to Tampa, Florida, because I could, okay? I just had enough of that cold weather, and now I am in an area that is nice and toasty warm for me. Well, today, we're going to talk to Diane about how to have difficult conversations with employees. But before we start, I just want you to know that I've known Diane for, gosh, it has to be at least six years now, and thrilled that not only is Diane, the director of surgical services for a hospital, but she's also on the Healthy Workforce team, yes. In addition to her full-time job, Diane actually steps in anytime we need a really great speaker, or we need a consultant. We love sharing Diane with the entire world. So welcome to Coffee Break, Diane, and thank you so much for being here. Do you have your coffee? I got to check that. You have coffee?

Diane Salter:
Yep.

Renee Thompson:
And I know if you're listening to this, you don't see this, but if you're watching on YouTube right now, you can't have a Coffee Break Podcast if you don't have coffee. So, yes, we have our coffee. So, Diane, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? And I think our audience would really be curious to know how you became such an expert in dealing with disruptive behaviors and difficult conversations.

Diane Salter:
Yes, definitely. Thank you so much. I love being here, and I thank you for inviting me to be your first guest. It's an honor.

Renee Thompson:
I'm excited.

Diane Salter:
Nursing was actually a second career for me, and when I started my first position as a new nurse in 1999, I was very surprised and disheartened to see how nurses treat one another. I had been a leader in a previous position, and I did not see the extent of that unkindness and even undermining in that previous profession. Also, knowing what we hear all the time about the Gallup polls that says we're the most trusted, compassionate, empathetic, but it didn't seem like we're that way to one another. So after 12 years of being a staff nurse in that department, I took the leadership role, and I made it my mission with my team to try to create and sustain a healthy work environment. So much so that when I left there four years ago, my teams had some of the highest engagement and safety scores in the entire hospital. I loved it so much that I chose to do my capstone for my master's degree on addressing lateral and vertical violence among nurses, and what inspired me then in 2013, you spoke at our Nurses Week.

Renee Thompson:
So it was more than six years ago.

Diane Salter:
Yes, and then, I was super inspired to continue the journey to build trust, demonstrate compassion and caring, and authenticity, especially related to the difficult conversations. And it seems like in my career, most of those difficult conversations are more related to interpersonal issues and bad behaviors, not clinical, right? And so my staff, which is, I laugh at sometimes, they'll say, oh, Diane is so good at it. And I don't really think that's what it is. I just think that I've invested time in learning, being better at it, whether it's professionally or personally, a lot of self-awareness about what my hot buttons are because I definitely have them. And just as you and I have talked about in the past, becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable because this never gets easier, just to be honest, it never gets easier.

Renee Thompson:
100% true. And it was interesting when you were talking about how you became a nurse, and then you realized our dirty little secret. Nurses can be so kind to their patients, but they can be cruel to each other. It reminded me of when I wanted to write my very first book. I wanted this book to do very well. I wanted to make sure that it was written well. And truth be told, I'm a really great speaker, I'm not so good at writing. I've learned to become a good writer, but it doesn't come naturally to me. So I actually hired a writing coach, and when we first met, and I told her that I wanted to write a book about nurse bullying, she actually thought it was going to be a comedy. Like she was writing a book that was going to be fake because nurses couldn't bully each other, and when she started reading what I had written, she really was incredibly surprised. But if you work in healthcare, you know, Diane, we're not surprised, we see it every day.

Diane Salter:
I think I remember you and I, the very first time I either came out for a retreat with you or doing work with you, I sat next to a gentleman on the plane, you just have a conversation, and he asked me what I did. And when I told him what I was going to do, he was like, What? What are you talking about Nurse Bullying? And he was fascinated by the whole concept, but it was just amazing that, you're right, it is the dirty little secret because people don't realize that it's happening. It's a shame.

Renee Thompson:
They don't, and I really appreciated what you said about, people think you're so good at having these difficult conversations, and it's not that you're good at them, you've learned to be more skilled at having them. And I think part of it too, is when to have them, how to have them. There's really a science behind this, but there's also an art, and you don't start out in a leadership role knowing exactly how to have those conversations, so I really love your input. When people say difficult conversations or uncomfortable conversations, how do you define that? What does that mean?

Diane Salter:
So, like we just talked about, I read a lot. I listen to podcasts, but I think the best definition that I ever heard about difficult conversations came from Crucial Conversations: two people having a conversation that has high stakes, opinions vary, and emotions are high. And then I think about the healthcare environment where it fits all of those things, many times, when it comes to disrupting bad behavior. And to take it one step further from Crucial Conversations, I think that our work, our relationships, our lives, they succeed or fail one conversation at a time, when you think about it. And that while no single conversation will necessarily break a relationship, a single or a life, personal life, it can. So it's not a guarantee, but we know that it can break a relationship if it's the wrong conversation.

Renee Thompson:
Sure.

Diane Salter:
So as leaders, we need to speak and listen when we have a conversation with the person, that this is the most important conversation we might ever have with this person, because it might be, and we have to participate like it matters because it does matter. And when you think of these conversations, we always say difficult, but I think we have to reframe it and think passion, authenticity, collaboration, and integrity. Because when we say difficult, we automatically kind, of put a negative tone when they could be really great conversations that make a unit better or a department better, it could be a turning point for an individual on your team.

Renee Thompson:
You know, that's a great point. I don't know that I've thought of it in that way, but maybe instead of calling them difficult conversations, because you're right, then right away we know, oh, this is going to be difficult because your brain automatically goes to the negative. Maybe we should call it opportunity conversations. This is really an opportunity for you, especially in a leadership role to have, as you know, Diane, we always say to have an honest and respectful conversation with someone about their behavior, their clinical skills, whatever that might be, but it really is an opportunity. And what I have found is that a lot of leaders do not have these conversations because they're so uncomfortable and they don't feel equipped or skilled, and there's a psychological reality in all human beings that we avoid pain. Think about it. We're designed to avoid pain because that affects our survival. Well, if you're a brand new nurse leader and maybe you're in your mid-20s, and you have an experienced nurse in your department who's clinically competent but who is toxic, you know, you need to address her behavior. How uncomfortable is that? Chances are, if you're not skilled and equipped, you're going to avoid that conversation because it's avoiding pain. So why is it important, from what you've seen, for leaders to actually not avoid them and embrace them instead of, like I said, we run away from them. We don't want to have that conversation. We'll come up with every excuse in the book why we don't have that conversation.

Diane Salter:
Right. And remember, I think we were talking about this one time when we were together with our team, that a recent Harvard Business Review showed that 69% of nurse leaders are afraid to have conversations, difficult conversations with their staff. I mean, you just said it. That's like, let's just say 70%. That is a lot of people that aren't having difficult conversations. But research, again, has shown that strong relationships, careers, organizations, and communities all draw from the same source of power, and that source of power is the ability to openly talk about high-emotion, controversial topics at times. And you and I use the term Puppies and Roses, I'll say it's not just about soft and mushy, but they have shown that a lot of organizational success comes from the ability for leaders in that organization to have crucial conversations. We know that in the worst teams, poor performers, they either are ignored, they get transferred, eventually, they may get fired. In good companies, the boss is doing all the work, and we see a lot of nurse leaders that are in that position; they're doing the work because they don't want to have those conversations. But in the highest performing organizations, it's just a common expectation that peers hold each other accountable in a respectful way, no matter their level or no matter their position. So our ability to deliver these hard messages helps us speak with clarity, conviction, and compassion. And I think you remember one of our intensives that we had. We had a gentleman who said this, and I found some reference to it, and they just worded it a little differently, because if you are a leader, you need to realize there is no trivial comment that you make. Something you don't even remember saying can have a huge negative impact on somebody that looks to you for guidance or even approval. So when they say words matter, they absolutely matter.

Renee Thompson:
Yeah, that reminds me, something that we actually share with our leaders, the leaders who we're working with, that there are a few key points during your day with your team that matter most, and one of them is as soon as you cross the threshold of your department, pay attention to how you present yourself, your body language, are you smiling, are you miserable because you had a flat tire or, you know, something happened to make you late, or you got paged, and somebody called off, and you have to try to fix that? I always say this, before you cross the threshold of your workspace, take a deep breath and then just remember it's how you start your day that matters most because your team is going to be paying attention to you as the leader when you first walk into that department, very similar to what you're talking about, Diane, and that what they say, you'll never know that there are some things leaders say, sometimes they'll say it as a side note, but it can be incredibly powerful in a positive way or in a very negative way. Really great point, it's funny, but it's not funny. You've worked in surgical services for a really long time, and with the work that we do at the Healthy Workforce Institute, we do a lot of consulting. When organizations reach out, and they ask us for help, Surgical Services is the number one area that they ask for help to really address disruptive behaviors and cultivate the good behaviors, and you've been in surgical services for a long time. I'm sure you have a gazillion examples of situations where it prompted you to say, I need to have a conversation with this employee. Can you just share a few of them? Obviously, being confidential, not sharing names.

Diane Salter:
Right. So ones where I know I needed to address, but I really didn't want to because it's just so hard. I mean, we could, how long is this podcast? You have like four hours to talk about it?

Renee Thompson:
I have two!

Diane Salter:
There are very separate issues. One might seem somewhat unexpected to people, but as a leader, you might experience it. One was with a surgeon. He was in pre-op one day, and let's just say he wasn't warm and fuzzy to people, like he didn't exude warmness, and nurses and staff were kind of afraid of him, and he got very frustrated. And looking back, when I had to talk to him, he had every right to be frustrated. It was not ignoring the fact that this was something that was really bothering him, but he dropped the F-bomb, and he dropped the F-bomb in the unit behind a curtain. I don't know if he thought it was a lead door that people couldn't hear him, but a whole lot of people heard him. This was maybe a year ago, and myself, and the managers that report to me, they work on their staff being able to say something to a physician. But I guess this has happened before, and they just were not comfortable. And so I was able to pull him aside privately, and I felt like sometimes it was Groundhog's Day when I talked to him, because I felt like I was kind of rehashing the whole thing just about his demeanor and how he talked to people. So I brought him aside in a room and closed the door, and I just said to him, you know, I'll just call him Dr. Joe. I said, You know, Dr. Joe, I'm not sure you realize this, but what happened in the unit? Well, first of all, I asked him to ask me what happened. And I said, wow, that sounds really frustrating. And I said, but I don't know if you realize this, but your patient and your family in there are very upset, and you're about to make a cut into them. And they wanted to speak to the leader of the department. They don't want to speak to you because they don't want to make you angrier than you already are. And I said, that's not okay. And he's like, well, and he started to name all the reasons I said, I get it, and we have to address that. I said, but I'm going to go in because this is my organization too, and I'm going to apologize, and I can't make you do that, but you might want to have a conversation to put that family at ease, because right now, there's a lot of unhappy people, and the psychological aspect of this surgery for this patient is going to be very important to them. And he actually, he apologized, tried to make excuses, but it went okay, and I found out from the nurse later because I wasn't hovering around to find out if he did, but he did it, and it was okay. And that was a while ago, and we really haven't had too many issues since then. But it was just one of those ones, like I say to myself, my inside voice, like, here we go again, you know? But it went well, and the staff were appreciative of the support. The other one is very personal. It was when I was a nurse manager, so it was a while ago, and the reason I bring it up is to just show you, in the big picture, how uncomfortable things can be for leaders. We had a person on our team in a support staff role that the staff were complaining to me about hygiene issues.

Renee Thompson:
Oh boy.

Diane Salter:
For her.

Renee Thompson:
That's rough.

Diane Salter:
And nobody wanted to talk to her. And this was a team that started to have these conversations, and they brought it to my attention. And I didn't want to have the conversation either, because. how do you say that to somebody?

Renee Thompson:
Right.

Diane Salter:
There's no good way to say that you smell.

Renee Thompson:
Right.

Diane Salter:
There's no good way. And the good thing is, as a nurse leader, I had a good relationship with this person, and by just asking her questions first, not bringing her into the office, and just coming right out, I just, I knew there were social issues. I knew that she had a lot of kids. She lived and worked on a farm, lots of animals in the house. So I was able to broach the topic with her and then just said, is there anything that I can do to help you with resources? And she, it actually was a very good conversation. She appreciated that someone told her, but I'm telling you, in my whole 24 years of having courageous conversations with some pretty tough stuff, that was the hardest because it was so, so personal.

Renee Thompson:
It was.

Diane Salter:
But what was the choice? No one had it, and people continued to talk about her right behind her back and maybe make fun of her, or maybe affect patients and things like that. So those are two conversations that totally different ends of the spectrum but were hard to have.

Renee Thompson:
Sure, and it reminds me of a conversation that I had years ago, and I was actually working full-time for an organization. There was somebody on our team who, yes, she had an odor issue, and really this is when I started looking into the leader's role, who's responsible? So I know many of you on the call right now, most of you are probably in a leadership role. When asked who's responsible for having the conversation with an employee about hygiene, now we are all about peer-to-peer accountability, peer-to-peer feedback, we promote this, we teach this, but in this case, it's the leader's responsibility to have that conversation, not a peer, unless the peer is a good friend. So my besties, Kimmy and Dina, if I was having any type of hygiene issue, they'd say, Renee, you need a bath. Okay? They would just tell me. And if you have that, that's fine, but if you don't and everybody's uncomfortable, and they're coming to you, it is your responsibility to have that conversation. Uncomfortable as it may be, but it is your responsibility. I do want to go back to something that you mentioned about the physician. I hear this a lot where, let's say, you have a new graduate nurse who was yelled at by a physician. That new graduate nurse doesn't say anything to that physician for a number of reasons, but comes to you as the leader. The worst thing you can do is tell that physician to apologize, to force an apology. And you mentioned that, Diane, I want to reinforce this. I never force anyone to apologize. So I'm the oldest of five kids. My brother Jerry is only ten months younger than me, we're both born in the same year. Okay, so there's six weeks out of the year that we're the same age. And then a couple of years later came Tina, and then a couple of years, Eric, and then a couple of years, Amy. And, you know, my brother and I would pick on my siblings, and then my sister, especially Tina, she would go running to my mom, and then we'd get in trouble, and my mom would say, I want you to apologize to your sister. And Jerry and I would say, I'm sorry. We weren't sorry, but she forced us to, so it was an insincere apology. Now, on the flip side, here's what tends to happen, maybe the physician does apologize, but then you, on the receiving end of that apology, say something like, it's okay, don't worry about it. No, do not say that. Because what you're basically telling them is it was okay that you did that. Instead, teach your employees to say this: Thank you for apologizing to me.

Diane Salter:
Right.

Renee Thompson:
That's it. Thank you for apologizing. So this is why I think Diane is so great. We share the same principles. I'm apologizing, and I'm not going to force you to apologize, but you should, because that's the right thing to do, especially right before the patient is going for surgery.

Diane Salter:
And as long as, you know, I've said to them, if you feel it can't be authentic.

Renee Thompson:
Right?

Diane Salter:
If me talking to you made you kind of think, and you're like, well, I really should, that's great, but if you're not feeling it, people like you said, they're going to know. They're going to know that it's not coming from your heart.

Renee Thompson:
Absolutely, people can spot an insincere apology a mile away. So, Diane, you know, we are all about the practical solutions, practical strategies say this, do that. You know, say these words to this person when they're acting that way. Can you just give us a couple of strategies that you have found very helpful in really helping you be willing to have these difficult conversations with employees in a way, and I know you've learned this over the years, too, in a way that has led to better outcomes?

Diane Salter:
Yes, definitely. And even as a leader that's been doing this for a while, sometimes I don't do it right, and I have to reflect on maybe how I did handle something well. But the first one, I think, would be, I think I mentioned the word earlier, just it's self-awareness and pausing for self-reflection, asking yourself the question, why might you be struggling to give this feedback? What do you have to reconcile? Is this a person you have a great relationship with, and you're afraid you might ruin it? You might be perceived as being unfair. I've had leaders in the past that they don't want to be the bad guy, they want to be the person's friend. And in the long run, that doesn't serve them at all. So, number one, you and I have talked about this. There are some behaviors that need to be addressed in the moment; somebody's yelling or screaming, but relationships or you're having an issue with an employee, and you really need to think about it because otherwise, they don't go well. The second one, and this is my number one, if I could list it, I'd say prepare, prepare, prepare.

Renee Thompson:
Yes.

Diane Salter:
Be clear on what you want to communicate. Anticipate, again, if you're a brand new leader, you don't know your people, but you need to anticipate how might they react. What behaviors are you going to talk about with them that might need to be changed? What expectations aren't they meeting? And then what are the consequences if this behavior continues? So number two is preparation, probably my most important one. Thirdly, create an approach with an end in mind. Think about how you're going to approach the conversation with a balanced combination of empathy and assertiveness to make sure your point is heard. Are you prepared to stay on message? If someone blames, they shift it, they cry, they become angry, I've had all of those things happen, and someone once told me, and I kind of chuckle when I think about this, I always kept tissues in my office. And when you look at personality tests like Myers-Briggs and all the, I look at the one that's like the animals.

Renee Thompson:
Oh yeah.

Diane Salter:
Otter, Eagle. I come out as a golden retriever, and I am 100% a golden retriever. I want harmony, I want peace. But you and I both know when you're in leadership, and you're a director, and you're in a tough service line, you cannot be a golden retriever all the time. And so I got to the point, and someone gave me this advice when, I don't keep tissues in my office anymore. If someone starts to cry, first of all, they're not in a good place. I'll say it, they'll say, do we have a tissue? And they're looking, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't. And I'll say, I know this message, maybe it's the first time you're hearing it, or this is upsetting to you, maybe this isn't a good time. I need you to be in your best place to have this conversation. So I got that advice from someone. I keep them for myself, but they're hidden so that people can't, because then it's like a whole thing. They're blowing their nose, and it's like, so you have to be prepared for that. And then what are the questions that you're going to ask them to help better understand why they're not meeting their expectations, maybe you discover that somebody's homeless or having drug issues or somebody in their family, and you can offer them resources because that's when, if you have that relationship with your team members, and then just letting them know you're in it together if they want help, that you're there to help them explore those solutions together.

Renee Thompson:
Yeah.

Diane Salter:
And lastly, just creating that culture of continuous feedback, which starts with trust. You don't walk in as a new leader, and it's like, what's that commercial? Trust me, I'm a doctor, trust me, I'm a lawyer. You have to build that trust. And then how do you cultivate that environment to make sure that the staff feel empowered to have those difficult conversations, and the tools so as the leader, you're not always the one having the difficult conversations? So those would be my four. I feel like they're very applicable and easy to incorporate and learn about as a leader, new or experienced.

Renee Thompson:
Yeah, I think you're right, new or experienced leaders. And I think that piece of reflection, that little bit of self-reflection, is something that I don't do a good job with myself and that I have a team now. There's ten of us on this team, and over the years, I've had this business now for 11 years, I have had to have some very difficult conversations with people on my team. And there have been times that I know I procrastinated and I didn't have the conversation when I should have, and if I actually would have put the time in to self-reflect, I would have seen that it was, to your point, I want everybody to like me. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But there's a quote; it's my favorite quote now from Perry Belcher that says, there's nothing that'll kill a good employee faster than watching you tolerate a bad one. So it's having these conversations about people's behavior, and sometimes you may discover, as you said, Diane, that there's something going on. Now, there are other situations that, no, there's nothing going on. They've been allowed to behave this way for decades, and now you're the leader, and you're going to have to deal with it. But the other strategy that you share that is something so incredibly important is to prepare for that conversation. So especially if you're someone who likes to avoid conflict, you know, you avoid the pain, I highly recommend that you just don't on the fly say, come on into my office, let's talk. That no, no, no, no, no. You really have to sit down. Because I've done this with bullet points, because if I don't have, this is what I want to say, and if I'm not clear, and if I don't prepare ahead of time, I will ramble. I will go off on a tangent, and I will backpedal sometimes, especially if they start reacting like, Oh, no, no, no, you're great, never mind, never mind, don't do that. But it's easy to do that if you're not prepared. Oh, my gosh. Diane, so, so helpful. So we're going to be wrapping up here in a few minutes. What is an action do you think leaders can take to get better at having these difficult conversations? Because, as you said, you didn't start out that way, and you made, I'm sure, a lot of mistakes along the way. But is there an action, or is there something that you think leaders can take right now to actually get better at having these conversations?

Diane Salter:
I think so, and I think it's something that I actually, it's something that I'm working on, and I read it recently; I was preparing for something, and it's attributed to Walt Whitman, and he says, e curious, not judgmental, when you're going into these conversations. And I just add to that, do not underestimate the power of empathy. It's not the puppies and roses. And I know that you and I both follow John Eades, for people on the call, E A D E S. He writes a lot of things on leadership. And something he wrote, and he does like a blog, and I read them, I love to read them, they're very short, and they have great points. And most of us have seen definitions of empathy. And his definition, which is similar to many of ours is, how well you identify with others to understand their feelings and perceptions in order to guide your actions. And then he says, it's like, you know, we always say walk in someone else's shoes, but that's when it stops. He adds this caveat that I love that says, and act differently because of it. Not just walk in someone's shoes and act like you always do, but do something different because you were able to feel that pain or that stress or that fear or whatever it is, and act differently. And so I think, when we talk about being curious and not judgmental, it means that we're doing a better job at listening and then just being empathetic, but acting on what it's like to walk in someone else's shoes. So it's very simple, but I think it's powerful.

Renee Thompson:
Extremely powerful. And we actually use that whole curiosity as one of our strategies in dealing with so many different situations. I think, as human beings, we tend to go right for that why did you do this? Or, you know, we get really angry about somebody's behavior, or we talk about them behind their back, but to just act with curiosity. So let's say you have someone who's being very territorial. Like, I'm curious why you would put a piece of tape over this computer with your name on it. Okay, like, I'm curious. What's the reason?

Diane Salter:
Yeah, it doesn't sound aggressive.

Renee Thompson:
It doesn't. And that is a strategy, but it's also, as a leader, you should be curious about your people. You know, I always say you shouldn't have to be a psychiatrist to lead people, but it certainly helps if you understand some human behavior and some psychology. But the bottom line is you need to care about your people, and acting with curiosity instead of judging people right away for the way they act can really make a huge difference. So it's a great strategy, Diane. And as we wrap up, I just have two questions for you. Number one is, you're talking about reading, you and I are avid readers, we share books together, it's awesome. What are you reading right now? Now, it could just be an article. If you're in between books, it could be a white paper, it could be a book, it could be something for fun, or something for work. So what are you reading right now?

Diane Salter:
Well, I'm definitely reading fun books because my youngest daughter is a book nerd. She just came back from a book conference in Dallas where she, fiction writers, and so she recommends books to me, but I have simultaneously those books going. But you're going to laugh when you hear this because you give recommendations, my organization gives recommendations, but I am reading your recommendation, Radical Candor by Kim Scott.

Renee Thompson:
Oh, yes!

Diane Salter:
You recommended it. And then I'm like Radical Candor? And, you know, she says in the book, people think, I think, oh, that's an excuse for people to just not be nice, radical candor. But I started reading it, and it's not about healthcare; it's from that Silicon Valley perspective. It's Google and Apple.

Renee Thompson:
… Google.

Diane Salter:
And I downloaded it on Audible because, you know, I drive one hour to work, one hour home, and I like it so much, I'm about halfway through it, that I ordered the book because I like to have the book to refer to. But one of the things, and you kind of mentioned it, that sticks out, and I've used this expression, I don't know if it was attributed to Kim Scott, maybe other people saw it, it is to care personally and challenge directly. It is one of my favorite sayings, and also one of the things she says in the book, that was one of the first things that stuck out to me. And I've said this, but I've never said it this way, but I love the expression is that; when you are having a difficult conversation with someone, be careful not to blame their internal essence instead of addressing the bad behavior. And it's so true; it's about the behavior. So those are just a couple things. There are some things I don't necessarily agree with because it's like corporate kind of, sharkey, I think, but there's a lot of pearls of wisdom in that book.

Renee Thompson:
Yeah, it was not an easy read, as they say. I had to take it chapter by chapter. But I'll tell you what, I got a lot of great nuggets, especially about how to have more honest and respectful conversations. And what I really appreciated about the author, Kim Scott, is, boy, was she vulnerable. Boy, did she share some of the mistakes she has made, and like all of us, when we hear about somebody else's mistakes, makes us feel a little better about ourselves and our mistakes. Like, if somebody at her level right now can admit that she's made all these mistakes and actually grew from it, we can all do that. It was very inspiring. So I'm glad you got the book. Yeah, I just finished reading that not too long ago. And so the last question, what book would you recommend to leaders, especially somebody who's new in the leadership role, what book would you recommend to them? Like, oh, this is a must-read.

Diane Salter:
Just thinking about this, I can think of, there's so many that I think are good, but the one that comes to mind is No Ego by Cy Wakeman.

Renee Thompson:
Right.

Diane Salter:
I love that book. She says things, she's funny, like she says things like, ego is not your amigo. She talks about drama in the workplace and how to address it. My favorite is, self-reflection is the ultimate ego bypass tool. And this book was very helpful to me as a new leader in my current job, and, because it's the core driver of accountability. If you saw this book of mine, it's beat up, it's dog-eared, it's highlighted, it's post-noted, if that's a word. And I was looking at it recently, and I was like, wow. And I have referred to that book so many times in addressing drama in the workplace. And I think it's an easy read, and it's great to listen on Audible also. So I've listened to it on Audible, and I've read the book.

Renee Thompson:
You know, that's actually a great strategy, to listen to an audiobook and then read it, or vice versa. Because I'm one of these people, I'll read the same book every year over and over and over again, and every time I do, I learn something else. I'm actually reading Patrick Lencioni's Advantage right now. I've already read it. I'm reading it again because it's about culture change. So love that, Diane. Those are two great books. Like I said, I've just finished Radical Candor, and I read No Ego a while ago. Maybe it's time to pull that one back out, and maybe I should read it again, so thank you so much. And I just want to thank you for being a guest on our show, and just, you know what, Diane? Keep up the great work that you're doing to cultivate and sustain a happy and healthy workforce culture. I so appreciate you and all the great work that you've done, and appreciate you being a member of our team here at the Healthy Workforce Institute. So thanks again, Diane.

Diane Salter:
Thank you. I really appreciate it. It truly is my passion, and it helps me in my own job every day, so I just love it. And my leaders that I work for, they know it's my passion, so I'm just very excited that I could be your guest today and be part of your team.

Renee Thompson:
Well, it's a good passion to have. Yeah, it'd be really nice if everybody had that same passion, all employees too. I said, I'd love to put ourselves out of a …

Diane Salter:
I'll change the world.

Renee Thompson:
If we change the world and everybody is actually kind and respectful and professional, and they engage in honest and respectful conversations, I said, we'd be out of a company. I could close and then go spend more time with my grandbabies. How's that? And you could spend more time at the Cape on the beach.

Diane Salter:
Yes, exactly.

Renee Thompson:
Well, thank you again, Diane. It's always great having a conversation with you. I finished my coffee, so I appreciate that. And we'll see you soon.

Diane Salter:
Thank you. Bye bye!

Renee Thompson:
Bye!

Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found these practical strategies helpful, we invite you to click the Subscribe button and tune in every other week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility, visit HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee, be kind, take care, and stay connected.

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