EP 73: Taking Ownership: Creating Drama-Free Workplaces

CB 73_Dennis McIntee: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

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Dr. Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings. But what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Hi, everyone! Welcome back to another episode of the Coffee Break podcast. I want to thank you for being here with us today. Okay. Do you have drama in your department? Do you have any of those people who run into your office and complain about other people and just love to create drama, where maybe it doesn't exist? Well, today you're in for a special treat, because today we get to have a chit-chat with my friend and colleague Dennis McIntee, who is the CEO of the Leadership Development Group, who specializes in creating drama-free workplaces. Dennis, welcome to the show.

Dennis McIntee:
Renee, I am always honored to talk with you. I always get so much from it. And so, I'm glad we just get a chance to once again have a conversation.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Well, those of you who are listening or watching right now, I have to tell you, I met Dennis at a conference where he and I were bookend keynoters. Dennis was the opening, and I was the closing. And then we recently again spoke at the same conference. So, I have heard Dennis talk about leadership and creating drama-free workplaces a couple of times now, and we've had several conversations in between. And I just adore Dennis and his, I don't know, just straightforward message on what leaders can do to create those drama-free workplaces. And so this is going to be a really great conversation. But before we get into it, I want to tell you just a little bit about Dennis, especially the important things. I know Dennis is absolutely passionate about helping leaders create these high-trust, high-performing workplaces with their teams. He's also the author of the book The 8 Qualities of Drama-Free Teams and Drama-Free Teams in Healthcare, and most importantly.

Dennis McIntee:
Drum roll, please.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
That's right, drum roll, proud grandfather of two precious granddaughters. And so you know, Dennis has two grandkids, I have two grandkids. And we're always loving on our grandchildren. And so, Dennis, where do they live? Near you? Your grandkids.

Dennis McIntee:
Oh, my gosh. Yes, yes. And if they'll never move, right? They're always going to stay close. And anything that we can do. Yeah, it's, I thought I love my kids, but then I know Renee, when you have grandkids, it's like, gosh, I have a new dimension of God's love that I've just experienced. So it's been a blast.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I remember when my daughter was pregnant with our first grandchild, and people would say, oh, you wait, you know, your grandchildren. You will love them more than your children. They will make it like, no way. Because the love I have for my daughters is, you know, I can't imagine anything, you know, me loving anything more. Oh my God, absolutely right. I love it's not that I don't love my my children, but those grandbabies. It just takes that love to a whole other level. And so, yeah, you and I were very similar in how we just they're part of our lives. And the one thing I am a little envious of is that, yeah, your granddaughters live near you. Mine do not. But I'm very intentional about making sure that I make time for them.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah. So, our encouragement is, if you hear nothing else today, go get grandkids. Whatever you do, just go get grandkids. So you're listening today. Figure out how to do it however that works, and go get yourself some grandkids.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah. And if you can't get them on your own, go borrow them from someone, right?

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So I first want to talk about the work that you're doing, really tackling drama. Dennis, that's not easy. And usually, there's a reason, something that led you down that path. I know for me, I've talked a lot about why bullying and incivility and obviously. Well, not obviously, but it's experiences that I've had. What led you down this path to really help leaders tackle drama?

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah, Renee, that is a great question. And I think it's really to help myself, right? Because I'm probably the biggest codependent mess just growing up and for my family of origin. And I was a great blamer. I was a great victim. And really, I started diving into this whole mindset and this message, gosh, probably 25 years ago, just to help myself and just to come to the point where I'm learning how to take ownership because it's fascinating. The more ownership you take, the more freedom you have. And if I always want and I started to go down this path of I want more freedom, freedom from different things. And really, it was like my ability to take more ownership really led me down a path of creating more and more freedom for myself. And so I really did it to help myself. And then other people get the blessing of hearing what I've learned just for myself.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You know, I think that's how a lot of us get started.

Dennis McIntee:
I think so, I think so.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
We see something that we want to work on ourselves. And I know just something very, very, you know, simple. You know, my most popular resource is 33 scripts to address disruptive behaviors when you don't know what to say.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah. Perfect.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
And I first created some of those scripts because I was struggling. I didn't know what to say in the moment. So I thought, well, let me come up with some scripts and what are some common situations I find myself in and let me create a script and practice it. But then I realized I wasn't the only one dealing with this. And so then you go and it moves from you and helping yourself to then recognizing that you can help others.

Dennis McIntee:
Well, and it's fascinating, Renee, because I think your pain creates your progress, right? I had this pain in my life, and it actually was a catalyst to cause me to change, transform, develop. And now, that same pain has also created progress for other people. And so I think almost like reframing pain sometimes is like, hey, it's the purpose of pain is to create progress, not just for pain's sake. And so just maybe encourage everybody out there if you're going through pain, actually use it for progress. How can you use this to actually create action steps and use it for progress?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh, my gosh. I think a lot of leaders who are watching or listening right now probably could make a list of all their pain, their pain points. But I love how you kind of spin that from a I'm in pain with this situation. This is a problem versus, I'm in pain with this situation. How do I like what's the solution or what can I do, and how do I make progress on that? I think that is a different way of looking at it and a healthy way of looking.

Dennis McIntee:
Well, because almost let's think about it for a minute. It's like if I the blessing of pain is it creates an energy for me, right? I'm typically I'm energized by things that are painful, right? And some people take this energy and they complain.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes.

Dennis McIntee:
But other people take the same energy and they create. And I tell people all the time, you can complain, or you can create. You just can't do both at the same time. And so thinking through like what the purpose of pain is, it's to give you energy. A very practical example, A couple of weeks ago, I was putting in a tree in our front yard, and we made the mistake of buying a four-foot tree, and I realized I got to dig an eight-foot deep hole for this bigger tree. And so it's a Saturday morning, and I'm shoveling this dirt, and I'm irritated, and I'm just it's painful and just emotionally, I'm just mad. I'm like, why the heck am I doing this on a Saturday? And I thought, you know what? Because I because typically when you have pain, you typically think you have a disadvantage, right? It's like I'm disadvantaged some way. And I thought, what if this was an advantage? How would I look at it? And I thought, this is actually my workout for today. I'm not going to have to go to the gym. And as soon as I like, made that switch. It was that simple question. Hey, what if this was an advantage? How else would I look at it? And I actually. And so that's a great way to go. Hey, this is painful. How do I make it progress? And that's a great little mind hack that maybe people can jump on and take.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
All right. I keep index cards near me as a reminder. Like I get to do things. Oh my gosh, I have to get on an airplane and travel somewhere. Oh my gosh, I get to do this. Yeah, it's a reminder because sometimes I think we can all get caught up in the muck of life. And we put on that victim hat, we put on that disadvantaged hat. This is going to have to be complain or create for me. I'm going to write that down.

Dennis McIntee:
It's great because most people go into drama, think about it, they go into drama because it's they feel like they don't have any choice. It's choice poverty, and the reality is you're choice abundant. And so when you hear drama a lot is you hear it in language, right? People say, well, I have to. That's, my boss says I have to do it. When you think about when I say I have to, that means I have no power. I have no agency; I have no control. There's nothing I can do. That's what I have to do. And the reality is you don't have to do anything. I tell people all the time, maybe you heard in the keynote, I said, hey, if your boss is right here, listen, free you up. You don't have to do what your boss says to do. Yeah, people laugh, right? But really, it's like, no, you might not have a job tomorrow if you don't have to do anything. No, right? And what we've discovered is that one of the fastest ways to go after this drama in organizations is to go after language, because language defines culture. And so when we allow people to say things, well, I have to. Or she makes me mad like nobody makes you anything. Like all of your emotions are your choice. All of your decisions are your choice. And it's really helping people take back agency. And some of those things are really fun to talk about.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
When you were talking about that, how you took the situation with your tree and you turned it turned it into an advantage, and I don't have to work out. It reminded me, and I don't know if you've read Greg McKeown's book on Essentialism.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah, a long time ago.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, it's been out there for a long time. And it's one of those books that I've had on my list. But then other books getting, you know, jump ahead of the line. Well, I finally read it.

Dennis McIntee:
Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Transformational for me, okay? And he said something that I actually applied this morning when I was dealing with a pain, a problem that I was trying to figure out. And he said, what if this was simple? What if this putting in this tree was simple? What would it look like? You know, so this problem that I had, this pain that I had was, I wanted to put something together, and I was struggling, and I was making it more complicated. And then I thought, oh, wait a minute, I learned this because that's what happens a lot, Dennis. We Learn things from other people, but then we forget and then we go back to our same old habits. I caught myself, and I thought, what if this was simple? What if the solution was simple? And I took a shower, and I was thinking about this, and I got out of the shower. I walked over to my husband, and I said, I am a genius. I figured it out and I did, and now I have this, you know, took a lot of stress off of me. Yeah, but it's very similar to what you said. How do you take your pain and turn it into progress? And you can complain about it, or you can create. I love this.

Dennis McIntee:
When I think what happens, a lot of people like take their experiences and experiences, anything like an employee says this or this happens in the market, or my spouse says this, and I look at every experience as simply just raw material, right? It has no good or bad. It is simply raw material. And part of our job as as humans is to take raw material and transform it into something else, right? So it's like all of this, this pain is simply just raw material. In fact, the thing about the funny thing about emotions is they're simply information. That's all they are. It's like, oh, I'm angry about that, huh? Okay. That's just information. I don't have to act out of it. It's raw material. That's all it is.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You know, Dennis and I remember you talking about this getting on the scale. It's just information.

Dennis McIntee:
It's just. It's just feedback. That's all it is: feedback.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Feedback. I am, I'm thin, okay? But I still have anxiety getting on the scale when I go to the doctor's office, or I do getting on the scale the first time. And I'm thin. People think, oh, you probably. Oh, yeah. Let me get on the scale. No. And I try to remember that it's just information. But you said something at one of your presentations that I actually tapped into this past week when I was going through something. It was very stressful situation. Okay. And I remember you talking about what's your number? And can you share that with our audience? Because I thought, oh my gosh, if I was talking to Dennis right now because my emotions were out of control, you know, maybe it's the Italian in me. I went full-on drama.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh, my gosh. I learned this from Dennis. What's my number? So, can you share that with our audience?

Dennis McIntee:
Okay. So, this is called the emotional regulator. And if people would actually like this tool we actually have created I don't know if you've seen it yet, Renee. It's actually a tool. It's a yardstick.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes.

Dennis McIntee:
So, we call it the emotion regulator. So what we want people to think part of what you have to do is you have to figure out when to respond and how to respond. And typically, what happens with drama is something happens, and people over-respond, right? They like blow up. They yell, they scream, they huff and puff. They over-respond. And then the problem is, you can't deal with the problem anymore. Now you have to deal with the over-response, right? You got to deal with all that emotional waste. So, it is simply a trick to use. But there are four times, Renee, that you have to over-respond. So we just wanted to say that in the beginning. Four times that people have to over-respond, you have to ask yourself, is it bleeding? So it's bleeding, over-respond. Is it not breathing? Over-respond if it's not breathing. It is it underwater? Over-respond. Or is it on fire? Okay. All of those you have to over-respond. Anything else, you just simply have to match the response. So I just I'd like the audience to just think about a yardstick and almost think about a line and think about one end of the line, 1 and the other end of the line 100. So you have this line: 1 on one side, 100 on the other side. And so we're going to ask everybody in the audience in listening, watching however you're digesting this content is I want to ask you a quick question. What's the worst thing that's ever happened to you? So think about that for a minute, okay? Not to get real morbid, it could be death of a parent, death of a spouse, divorce, a lot of different things, okay? So, Renee, you got your number?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I got my number.

Dennis McIntee:
Right? Okay, you got that idea?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, I did.

Dennis McIntee:
Yes. You got that idea. So now what I'm going to tell you is, moving forward, that's your 100. So whatever it is, and I don't even want to know what it is. Okay, that's your 100. But now, moving forward, Renee, I want you to put every experience on the yardstick, right? Oh, you forgot to send that email. Where does it go? What number, right? Oh, you forgot to take the dog out. What's the number? I forgot to take the garbage out. Oh, so and so forgot to call me back. Now, what I've discovered is most things in my life don't get above a 20. Very rarely does it ever get above a 20. The problem is, Renee, when it's really a five, but Dennis treats it like a 50, right? And so it is a little mind hack to simply ask yourself, okay, well, what's the number so that you respond appropriately? And the challenge is when you get into the emotion, it is just like you're on drugs, right? We've all said things out of out of anger we didn't mean to say. It's like I don't even remember what I said. I was so mad, right? Because you're on drugs, right? It's like you don't think straight. You don't respond straight. And so part of this idea is what your number is to snap you back to frontal cortex, back to that place of logic.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So I think that's what it is. It's being logical about the situation and having something to compare it to. Because I actually the first time I heard you talk about this, I shared this with my oldest daughter.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah, how'd it go?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Is very dramatic. And, you know, I got to the point where, especially when she was younger, if I'd get a call from her and she's like, oh, like, really, you know, upset and crying.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
At first, you think, oh, my God, somebody is bleeding or on fire by the way, she was responding. And then I realized it was something minor. And throughout her adult life, she has struggled managing her emotions like she takes things very personally and all of that. And when I shared that with her and she had her worst moment, it really helped her to at least pay attention to when she's going down that path.

Dennis McIntee:
Okay, so, Renee, here's something, and here's a mistake that a lot of leaders make is something happens, and people are emotional, and we say, hey, Renee, it's not that bad.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah.

Dennis McIntee:
Don't get so excited. Hey, what are you so upset about? Renee, those are not helpful, and here's why. Is because you're actually disregarding somebody's experience. And when I disregard your experience, I actually disregard you. So I don't say, and those things never work. Oh, it's not that bad. But I simply go, what's the number? And I have seen like, adults just snap right back to that frontal cortex with simply, right? Because when I say, oh, it's not that bad. Well, you don't know, right? It's my experience. And the challenge is you actually breed mistrust with people because then people go, well, I'm not gonna share that experience with you again.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, because…

Dennis McIntee:
You disregarded me. And so, when we typically disregard people's experiences, we actually disregard that person. And then we wonder why they're not engaged. Huh. Funny how that works.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
… before, and I've talked to leaders about this. When somebody says, for example, I don't feel valued, and the leader says, oh, you shouldn't feel this way. And then they go on and on about all the ways that they we value you, we do x, y, z and blah, blah, blah. It's you know, it sounds like it's very similar where you're really disregarding their feelings. And I didn't think of it from that perspective, but you're disregarding them.

Dennis McIntee:
You really are. And they're not engaged. And so, I think what needs to happen is, like, you just need to give people space to live in the tension.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes. Oh, yeah.

Dennis McIntee:
That's even like with my marriage, I've gone through different scenarios where I had to realize, like, going through like my own marriage is that at times when there was tension between my wife and I, Renee, the truth was, I didn't really want to solve the problem. I just wanted the tension to go away.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah.

Dennis McIntee:
And you know what? You got to allow people to have the tension. So I tell people all the time, I am fine with any emotion. I'm great with anger, frustration, but what I'm not okay with is complaining, gossip, right? Those, there are standards of behavior, but I'm not going to try to change your emotion because it's simply information for you. And if we can really learn to let people sit in it like, oh, I'm frustrated. Well, great. I love that you're frustrated because that just means you care, right? Okay, right? You're frustrated, but not try to change the frustration because people feel because they think. And so I always here's a quick hack, right, is never coach feelings, right? Problem is, and I don't know if you've seen this, Renee. Have you ever seen a problem without an emotion attached to it? And then, do they typically bring you the emotion before the problem? I'm so mad, and then boom, I'm frustrated, and then I get the problem. Okay, so watch this, is let people have the emotion. Don't coach emotions. Don't coach feelings, but coach thinking. And here's a way to do it, okay? You feel frustrated because you think what, right? Because I think and I feel, so, my feelings are simply a reflection of how I think. I feel frustrated because I think this now, whatever they say, I think, coach that all day long. Coach thinking all day long. But the big sort of pitfall that leaders walk into is they try to coach feelings. Well, I don't want you to feel bad. I don't want you to feel frustrated.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You can't control that.

Dennis McIntee:
You can't control that. Well, in fact, when people have you ever had somebody try to fix your frustration? It doesn't work, does it?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I was going to say they have tried, but you're right. You can't control somebody else's emotions.

Dennis McIntee:
Right. And part of the problem is, like, I end up feeling controlled and nobody likes to feel controlled. You're like, well, hey, you shouldn't feel frustrated. This is going good. This is going good. And typically, it makes you more frustrated.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, it does.

Dennis McIntee:
It kind of fuels that. So it's I think that's a big mistake that leaders make, is that they don't allow people to sit in the tension and they try to fix their feelings.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So, I want to bring this up because I learned this from you, too. And it relates to this where many of our leaders, they, it's almost like they take on the burden of how their staff feels, like the problems that they have. And you said something about sometimes your team will come to you and they're complaining. They're telling you that you're a problem. And you had this really wonderful way of that leader responding because I know we always want to solve their problems for them. So can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Dennis McIntee:
Right. Because that's the challenge. Because, Renee, have you ever got a solution when you really just want to support?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes.

Dennis McIntee:
Right, it sucks, right? Like, I wasn't. And so, a simple question simply is, would you like support, or would you like a solution? Now if people say, I just really want support, put a time frame on it, great. I got three minutes and just sit with them and just be present with them in the emotion. So people feel heard because at the end of the day, I believe that people are powerful enough to solve their own problems. As leaders, we just have to learn the coaching skills to help them solve their own problems.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Well, and I think be comfortable being in an uncomfortable space.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
To not right away go to solution. And I want to share a personal experience that I had where that kind of hit me in the face because I had learned this before, you know. Do you want a solution or comfort?

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah, that's another one.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
My youngest daughter was in a situation where her cat was old and sick, and they wanted to do all of the testing and this and that. And I knew the outcome was going to be the same, but how much debt she was going to get in, you know, for the cat. So, I'm being logical. I'm texting her. Court, blah blah blah, blah blah blah, and finally, back and forth with her, my oldest daughter calls me, and the first words out of her mouth are mom, she needs comfort, not a solution. I'm like, oh, the student becomes the teacher, okay.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
She was absolutely right. My daughter did not need me to tell her exactly what to do. My daughter needed me to be there for her to say, I'm really sorry that you're going through this.

Dennis McIntee:
And it really is a way to grab people's hearts, and then you can get their hand in their head.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes.

Dennis McIntee:
But as leaders, sometimes, like, we try to just go right for the hand in the head without getting the heart, but it's like you get that heart, and it's a great way to grab a heart, and then you can go after the hand and the head.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I think that it's just, it's so simple and it can be a game changer if you're the leader and you just kind of remember that. I would actually put that on an index card to, you know, support or solution so that you show up the way your team needs you to show up. Again, they don't always need you to solve the problem for them. And one thing that you know, in my work, most of my conversations with leaders are about that one employee who behaves in a certain way that's disruptive. I had two of those calls today.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You taught me something that I also thought was brilliant. Again, leaders, we tend to say, okay, this is what I need to see from you and this is how you're going to do it. You're going to do A, B, C, D, blah, blah, blah. And you have a different approach to that, don't you?

Dennis McIntee:
I do, yeah. Yeah, I definitely do. And so because the best answers are self-created okay, right? And so one of the great questions I love is simply you share the problem with them, right? This is the problem, right? And then the magic question is what would you like to do about that problem you have? Hey, you know, being snarky with this employee, what would you like to do about this problem you have? Because at the end of the day, they are ridiculously you are ridiculously in charge. I'm ridiculously in charge. I'm ridiculously in charge of my behavior. I can't control people's behavior, right? Our job as leaders is to help them see the problem, right? See the problem, and then help them own it. And one of the best ownership questions is simply, what are you going to do about that problem you have, right? Instead of me trying to direct it? I think everybody wants this. It looks different for different organizations, but it's self-directed, self-motivated teams, self-directed people. But if you're always directing the solution right, they're not going to be self-directed. Of course, they're not right. You're actually doing all their thinking for them. And gosh, they'll let you do it all day long if you'd like.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh, yes. And so, what you're referring to because this is something I've been working on myself, and I've been helping my leaders work on the difference between enabling your team versus empowering them. So when you tell them, okay, this is what you need to do, you're enabling them instead of saying, how are you going to solve this problem? How are you going to, you know, show up in the way that we need you to show up?

Dennis McIntee:
Actually, what happens is it actually perpetuates the drama, right? Because when you rescue, right? That's a form of rescuing. Stepping in, trying to give the solution, right? Trying to solve people's problems for them. You actually rescue them. You actually perpetuate the victim mentality because all victims love a rescuer.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Well, you were right about that. And I actually was talking to someone, and I was sharing some of my frustrations with different people, and she looked at me and she said, you're an enabler. Stop enabling them. You need to flip the switch and empower them instead. And you know, and I thought, oh my gosh. And I think there are a lot of us. We step into that role because we think we're being helpful, but we're not.

Dennis McIntee:
Well, and I think that we work a lot both together with nurses and caring and helping professions. And what I've seen is that you're in it because you care. And the challenge is, when you overextend care, it becomes like becomes like a liability. And so sometimes, like putting care in the right perspective because sometimes care looks like, hey, I'm going to have a really hard conversation. I care. And then I confront so that I get clarity. And I tell people all the time, if there are situations that you have not confronted, maybe you just don't care enough, and that always gets a rise, right? Because it's like, especially if we're talking to 500 nurses. Come on. It's like they're ready to fight you right now. Like, what do you mean, I don't care? Well, let's just think about it, right? You have to care enough to step in and have the hard conversation. I care enough about you to have the conversation, right? Because really, I don't know about you, but the person I have the most conflict and confrontation with it is my wife.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Really? Yeah.

Dennis McIntee:
Now, when I'm saying, like, I'm not saying screaming, yelling, throwing shoes, right? But it's like, just passionate debate about, like, we're having conflict right now about where we're going to go for dinner, right? She wants spaghetti, I want barbecue. We're just we're having a conversation, right? But we can step into it because of that care. And so, as leaders, I think we just have to relook at how we apply care and what it really means.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You know, you remind me, Kim Scott's work on Radical Candor.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah, she's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Has she been on your podcast yet?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Not yet.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah. You got to get her on. She'd be great for your audience.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
She is fantastic. I loved her book Radical Candor, and I used that a lot. I'm in the process of reading her book now, Radical Respect, and it's really about bias, prejudice, and bullying. I mean, pretty much the whole book is, you know, organized in that way. But this is what I try to remember too, is, you know, and I work with my leaders on this. You need to care enough about your people to tell them the truth. And, you know, Brené Brown talks about this. You know, clarity is kindness. You know, clarity is kind. And it comes, and I always say this somebody would, it's easier for somebody to receive constructive feedback, negative feedback from somebody if they believe their intentions are pure and good.

Dennis McIntee:
Absolutely.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
That person really cares about them.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
And, you know, so many of our leaders spend so much time and energy. They want to be liked by everyone. And I know I'm one of them. I want everybody to like me.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
What's better than being liked is being respected. And they will respect you more if you tell them the truth.

Dennis McIntee:
Absolutely. Well, when I think leaders have to just step back and. Okay, so this is a great example of that's an emotion, right? I want to be liked. Well, like, I would take that for example and go, okay, well, what's in Dennis that's causing that? Like what has the change in Dennis for me to change that, right? Because think about like how many times, right? Because all organizations are simply a reflection of a leader's blind spot. All teams are a reflection of the leader's blind spot, and they're living inside of your blind spot. And so realizing, like, hey, I got a part to play in this, right? Hey, the reason we really have drama is because, hey, I'm really not having the hard conversations because I really want to be liked, right? So how do I change what's going on inside Dennis, right, for Dennis to get over this constraint, right? And then I'll have the heart. Then the drama will leave. And so I think leaders always have to step back, right? Because we teach what we know, but we produce who we are. And so if there is drama in your team today, I think I would just step back and go, okay, what's in me, right? What has the change in me for this drama for some of these things to change instead of just going out? Because think about it when I complain about my team, guess what, Renee? I'm just playing the victim.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, you are.

Dennis McIntee:
You have Dennis. Yep, you got a bad team? Yep. Dennis, you didn't hire these people? Yeah. You just didn't hire these. Yep. Oh, if you had so-and-so's team. Yep. It's so much better. Just stop the victimhood, right? Stop the complaining. Because when you complain about your team, you're just playing the victim and you're in drama, just like your team is in drama.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I know that there are so many listeners who are either watching, you know, listening, who are recognizing, oh, there are some things that I need to work on and with any, you know, team. And you look at leadership, anything that goes well, you have to ask yourself as a leader, what did I do for that to happen? Okay, what role did I play in that? And likewise, if things aren't going well, I learned this from Michael Hyatt. I was in one of his coaching programs, and he said, what part of my leadership caused that to happen? Maybe not caused, but what in me as a leader encouraged that or helped us to get that negative result or positive result? Because there's always an element of the leader in everything. And I so appreciate you saying that if you're frustrated with your team and you complain about your team, you're wearing the victim hat and we don't have time for that. Like, we have important work to do in healthcare. So, Dennis, as we wrap up. Gosh, I feel like we could have talked for several hours. I just think you have so many.

Dennis McIntee:
This was fun.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I know we're going to have a part two because there's so much more that we can unpack. But if there's a leader right now listening, who recognizes that they are playing the victim, they are actually encouraging drama because they're not telling the truth. What would be a first step for them to kind of move in the direction of, you know, I don't know, like taking ownership of their part and allowing their employees to take ownership of theirs?

Dennis McIntee:
Right. Well, I think the key thing, first of all, is I think you said it a little bit is like all progress starts when you tell the truth, which is the famous statement from Alcoholics Anonymous. And so I think we just have to tell the truth. It's like, hey, this is the reality. And then step back and go, okay, this is the behavior I behave because how am I feeling about this? How do I think about this?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah.

Dennis McIntee:
What's the truth? So we actually have a tool we weren't going to. Why don't we give out the trigger identifier? It is actually that is a tool for leaders to actually start making this change.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Okay.

Dennis McIntee:
So, we'll put a link to download the trigger identifier. And it walks people through a four-step process where you can start to self-identify what's going on in you so that you can make those changes yourself. Because, think about it. If your team is just a reflection of you, I can't control the people, but I can control me. So, if I change, the team starts to change, right? But it starts with the leader. It starts with you first. Leaders go first. We'll put a link and then we'll give that to everybody, to the entire audience.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
And I'm going to go through it myself, because I think we all should, because we all have an opportunity to really take a look at how we're showing up every day. And, you know, some of what's maybe, what emotional, I don't want to say baggage, but what are we bringing that we don't even realize we're bringing to the team? And so, Dennis. Okay, we'll put a link to the trigger identifier. We'll also put a link to your website, to your LinkedIn profile. Is there anything else that you would like us to include for our listeners?

Dennis McIntee:
Just put my email. I don't mind, put my email in there and just reach out to us if if we can help in any way. We'd love to serve you.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Well, this has been incredibly helpful. I know there are so many leaders out there right now who are recognizing themselves in the conversations that we've had. And I hope you all know that this is coming from a place of love and support. And we want to help. I am going to put a little plug-in for Dennis. You know, I've seen him speak twice now, and he is fantastic.

Dennis McIntee:
You're very kind, very kind.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
For a speaker. And if you're looking for somebody to really come in and do even more work, I would highly recommend that you reach out to Dennis because he's just obviously you've listened to him for the last half an hour. He's fantastic.

Dennis McIntee:
Thank you, Renee.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
And you know, it's funny because I'm in this space, you know, in a way leadership development space. But one of my favorite things is that I get to learn from other amazing people like you who are just you just have a different approach. And that approach is helping me and so many other leaders just become stronger, better leaders. So Dennis, thank you for being here.

Dennis McIntee:
Yeah, you're so gracious. Thank you. And you're doing great work. So just keep it up. Just keep it up. I love it.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh, I'm not going anywhere, I always say. You know, I just had a big birthday this year, and I'm like, okay, what's next?

Dennis McIntee:
Just the beginning.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I'm just.

Dennis McIntee:
It's just the beginning.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
It is just the beginning. And so I, again, thank you. And I want to thank all of you who are either watching this right now who are listening. We know you're super busy, but the fact that you took time out of your day to listen or watch tells us that you are also on the path to cultivating a healthy work culture and becoming a better leader. So thank you for being here. Take care everyone.

Dennis McIntee:
Bye bye.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found this podcast helpful, we invite you to click the Subscribe button and tune in every week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility. Visit us at HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee, be kind, take care, and stay connected.

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