EP 71: Empowering Nurse Leaders: Setting Boundaries and Finding Support

CB_71. Lori Gabriel Gunther: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

CB_71. Lori Gabriel Gunther: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings. But what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Hi, everyone! Welcome back to another episode of the Coffee Break podcast. Today, I am super excited to have a chit-chat with my friend and colleague, Lori Gunther, the CEO of Synova Associates. Lori, welcome to the show.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Well, I've been looking forward to this conversation because Lori and I kind of go way back. So, at Synova Associates, they host annual conferences, and Lori, I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit more about what you do at Synova. It's fantastic. One of the very first opportunities that I had to do a keynote presentation was at a conference, and I was blown away by just the positivity, the creativity. It was, and the amazing content that was delivered. And I become a fan ever since. And I've spoken at Synova many times. And then, Lori, you've been with Synova Associates now for, what, six years?

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Yep. Six years.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes. And I don't know, as soon as I met Lori, like, oh my gosh, I am thrilled that Lori is in this role and really taking over the reins of Synova Associates and what you've been able to do, you and Melissa, has just been remarkable. So Lori has just done amazing things with Synova. She has also worked for the March of Dimes Training Institute. She's been a keynote speaker and I've heard her speak. Amazing. If you're looking for a keynote speaker, Lori is just fantastic. I didn't know this, but you're also on the executive board of the Patient Experience Institute and the Family-Centered Care Task Force. And here's my I'm sorry, but here's my favorite. You're now a volunteer cuddler in the NICU at the Children's Hospital Colorado. So tell us a little bit more about Synova, what you do, and then we'll dive into our conversation.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I love that. Thanks, Renee. We do have a long and interesting history together. So Synova is a nurse leadership education company. I am co-owner with Melissa Gail. I'm our CEO, And I came to Synova in 2014. I was the senior director of NICU Innovation at March of Dimes, and I was training all over the country around patient experience and family support, specifically to the neonatal population. I'm a trained crisis counselor. That's what my master's in. Most people think I'm a nurse. I am not a nurse. I just pretend to be one on TV.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh, definitely. Yeah.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Right. So, but I think, I'm actually very well suited for this position, being a crisis counselor, especially when we came into owning Synova. But I started as a speaker, as you did with Synova in 2014, and I had just absorbed another department at the March of Dimes, and they sent me there essentially for my own leadership development and training and to meet with our clients. And I was blown away, as you were, that there was this amazing, exceptional community of neonatal and perinatal nurse leaders that all have similar roles and similar function, feel very alone in their everyday work environment. And then you bring them together, and you put them in a room, and you put leading experts, and there's only 200 of them in any given time. And what happens is this explosion of innovation and creativity, but also understanding. So when people ask me, tell me about Synova, I'll say it's a tremendous community that lives will live far beyond, you know, myself and Melissa and our team; it's been around for 30 years. And I'm just, I just get to work with tremendous leaders every day. So I feel very blessed. We have more than just our leadership conferences. We have a new certification. We have an emerging leaders program that we run with Nan. We have the Bal program that we run with Cy Wakeman. So we're doing a lot of leadership training specifically to our neonatal and perinatal nurse leaders.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I have been so impressed with everything that you've been, that Synova has done and is currently doing, and you're just adding more and more services because one of the things that I know about Synova and I know about you personally is that you are talking to leaders all the time. You truly have your finger on the pulse of what they're struggling with. Because you're right, it is a community where they can actually tell the truth on their struggles and their challenges and get the support and get the strategies and solutions. So you have your finger on the pulse. Can we just start by talking about what is happening out there from your perspective? What are these leaders challenged by? What's it like for these leaders now? You know, five years post-COVID, I don't even know that we could say post-COVID, but I'd love to hear what you're hearing.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Sure. And you know, I thought about this this morning. I woke up early and was thinking about sort of the current state of nursing leaders because a lot of my job people are asking that very question, like, what is the pulse of nurse leaders in our, you know, we work with nurse managers, our directors, CNOs educators, you know, assistant managers across the board. I have not seen our nurse leaders need the type of support and community since the act of COVID 2020 that they do right now. There is a sense of fear and not really knowing how to lead right now, which is interesting. And I will say at the end of the night, I get a lot of phone calls. You know, at night when leaders are driving home. And for two years, I would say I really didn't get them at night, where I think leaders felt well supported in post-COVID, and they were getting what they need, and they were staffed, and they had had their travelers approved. And something has happened at the beginning of 2025, where all of a sudden, it feels as though that there is a lack of support, validation, and understanding. And nurse leaders have a tremendous job that 24/7 level of accountability. If you ever look, I get jobs sent to me all the time like, hey, if you know a great leader, we're hiring a director. And I always look at the job postings, and they say 24/7 level of accountability, which is impossible standard.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yep.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I have a bone to pick about that and say is that really obtainable? I understand the meaning behind it, but you and I both understand how language is crucial to success. And so I think if you're putting an impossible standard, who is really available 24/7, 365 days a year? And that's in your job description. All it does is create muddy boundaries. A feeling of never being enough. You know, how do I manage around this high standard? I think that language needs to be changed.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So it's interesting, if it's actually in the job description, people still apply, don't they?

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Yes. Oh my God. It's like double fools.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Like you're a fool for putting that in, but you're a fool for agreeing to it. But I think it's a level of expectation that, well, of course, it's a 24/7 job from both ends. But to your point, this is so unhealthy for our leaders because there is no way that they can actually take responsibility 24/7 and to even have that as an expectation, you're setting them up to fail right from the beginning. And so, you know, it's funny, I just did a webinar on how to set boundaries and how to deal with people who hijack your time. We can all, I think, succumb to this need to be there for our team 24/7. So it doesn't even matter if it's in your job description or not. There's either this implied. Yes, you will be available for your team whenever they need you. And I'm curious how you feel about this, Lori. There is this, even if my organization doesn't expect me to, it's what I need to do so that I'm a good leader is to be there for my team 24/7. So yeah, I'm really curious your thoughts on that piece.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I'm laughing because I think, I often think when we run our conference for nurse leaders, we need to run a secondary conference for the partners and spouses of our leaders. Because I can say that I am married to a nurse leader, so I can see it from both ends, but I'm like, don't tell me you're actually going to be home from work at 5:00 when I know that's not the reality of your job. I totally understand that. I feel like all I hang out with or is in my circle are nurse leaders, right? So, I better than anybody I probably can understand being a nonnurse, what the pull of the job is. And yet, helping leaders set boundaries feels like an impossible task. Dr. Chilcott, she wrote a book on great boundaries. She's an anesthesiologist, and I was really working with female physicians on how to set boundaries. She's an amazing keynote speaker, but we had her come in and talk about that. And really the response was incredible, which is our system is not set up for leaders, nurse leaders in particular, to have boundaries. And we have to be good models and stewards of leadership. And I will say that nurse leaders are often PTO hoarders. They don't. They want to be seen. Their presence on the unit is incredibly important. Their presence to their team, and yet their span of control, is tremendous. There's one thing that I want to see and try to work with leaders is give yourself at least two hours a day that you are taking your phone and you are putting it aside, and you have a focus on what's important to you and what's important to you will be different for every leader. But if you can't have that boundary in your life, you are not setting up the next your succession plan to be successful in that role. Because we were just saying, AONL just came out with this nurse manager report in 2024. It's fascinating. And it talks about like the average number of direct reports, if I had to have an average number in women's services. I think it's something like 76 direct reports. Ridiculous. Like.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
It's not humanly possible to do that. Well, because when I was a nurse manager, I had 75 direct reports. I had no assistant nurse manager, no supervisors. It was me. And, you know, I have the whole story where I lasted 14 months. But I, every day I'd come in, and I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to this person is working today. I want to spend a little bit of time with them because they were one of those, you know, maybe they were a newer nurse, and I wanted to support and help them. And then I'd walk in, and all I did all day long was put out fire after fire. And so it's just humanly impossible to be responsible for that many people.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
You are 100% right. And I feel like in this report, nurse managers reported that they spent 50% of their time managing psychosocial and safety issues of patients and staff, right? And so when you think about that when you come home, what do you have left to give?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Nothing. Nothing.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
And I will say, what I often tell leaders is that you may love your job, you may be amazing at your job, and your why is often for leaders. It's often their team. They love to see their team develop. They may have a very specific why as to why they became a nurse in the first place, and what drives them in terms of patient care or moms and babies or, you know, making a difference. But at the end of the day, when you sign out, and you are done working at that particular place of employment, your job gets posted the next day, and somebody else will be in your role. And I've seen leaders who turn around and they're heartsick. They're like, well, I gave 20 years of my life. What are they giving back to me? And I think that's the wrong question. I think we have to think about, we gave what we what we wanted to give, and we shouldn't expect that the organization will create that legacy that we had envisioned for ourselves. We have to draw the boundaries about what's important for ourselves, what we have as our core values in our workplace happiness.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Well, that's incredibly powerful. And those of you who are listening or watching right now, I just want to pause for a minute and I want to reinforce something that you said, Lori. Many of us feel that we have to work as hard as we do, as long as we be on 24/7 all of that, because it's not only what the job requires, but we feel that that's what makes us a good leader, and we're loyal, and, you know, to our organization and committed and all of that. And it's not to say as soon as you quit, you will be forgotten. That's not what you're saying, but you will be replaced by someone else. I think sometimes we have this savior complex where I have to stay. I have to make it better. But, you know, I've had lots of different jobs. So have you. Making that decision to leave is sometimes so painful because you think of all of the work that you put in and who's going to take over that work. But guess what? Somebody will. And it's going to be okay. So, knowing that, why not in your current role right now, start looking at what can you do to start setting some boundaries for yourself. And I love the whole idea of, can you just shut your phone off for two hours a day? We talked in my webinar about open door policies. Oh, for the love of God, shut your door. Okay. Tell people if my door is open. Come on in. But if it's shut, do not bother me unless the building's on fire. Because I'm working on something like you need to give yourself some space for that. So maybe it's two hours, maybe it's 30 minutes to start, but to start thinking about yourself, not as the role that you have in the department that you're in, but a leader who is leading their team that also needs to like you value your team. You need to value yourself.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Right.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
And how do you bake that in?

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Well, I think too, it's not always about leaving, right? So some people, they love what they do. They love their job. They love their team. It just feels unmanageable. Yeah. And I would say that only we can control that, right? We can say no. I think a lot of times you have a reset if you're starting a new job, and you can say, well, this is what I value. And if you talk to nurse leaders, they all value something different. Sometimes it's the pay, sometimes it's the schedule. I truly wish, and I'm glad I'm saying this on camera, that every nurse leader had one day a week where they could work from home. Now, I know within our our current culture, there is a return to work sort of transgression that's happening. And everybody's going, you know, you need to have presence. And I'm thinking they never get a moment to breathe in the day. So much of their work is managing fires, and they're not trained crisis counselors, although they are. But you want to be seen as being, you know, visible and, but you still have all this extra work to do. So what happens is when you're quiet is you sit in bed, and you do it at home, or you do it to the detriment of your own wellbeing or the wellbeing of the things that matter to you personally. And so what I would love to see is there's a change in just how we view those leadership positions as what do you need to be successful in your job? Yeah, empowering them to actually say that to their chain of command, you know?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
There are organizations who are doing just that, giving their leaders one day a pay that they can work from home. It is probably one of the smartest things that you can do. They need space to to work on projects to develop themselves as leaders. And as you said, they come into work and they're putting out fires all day long. There's no space for that. So, can it be done? Yes. Will your leaders be healthier mentally, physically, emotionally if you do? Yes. So I'm asking and I'm glad you said it, Lori, that you consider getting together with your leaders and asking them, would this be helpful to you if we gave you and then you could stack it? Not everybody's home. And, you know, obviously taking the same day. I mean, you can make it work, but I want to transition a little bit into something that you said that I've noticed too, working with leaders in this level of support and what support do. And I'm going to say leaders need but that individual leader, because I was doing consulting for this organization, I talked to the managers, and the managers had art directors don't support us. And then I met with the directors and the director said, we absolutely support our managers. So there's a disconnect. I said to the managers, okay, what does support look like to you? Sometimes, they can't articulate it. They're just so overwhelmed. They can't even sit down and say, okay, this is what would be helpful to me. This is what support I need. But if you're listening and your director, ask your managers, the assistant nurse managers, I want you to feel supported. What does that mean to you? Because as you said, Lori, everybody has different core values, and they approach the work differently. And so, can you talk a little bit more about support because, again, you have your finger on the pulse of these leaders and what they're struggling with?

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I'm very excited to answer this question. So, a few years ago, I'm going to tell a little bit of a story. But a few years ago, we had some nurse leaders who came to us and said, we want to develop an advanced nurse leader certification through Synova, and we want it to be what we need, not what sort of the industry is telling us or our credentialing agency is telling us. We want you to help us create a training program, and it's essentially like an MBA type program for leaders, and you are part of that. You provide some of the content for our leaders. We have six areas of development. And for the nurse leaders, the first area that you go through is mentorship. And I'm our faculty with Melissa on that pillar. And we talk a lot about mentorship, and we give them a mentor map. And they have to identify who's their mentor. But then we take it a step further, and we have them identify and take an Enneagram test. Now, there's tons of personality tests out there. I personally love the Enneagram. I'm a counselor, so I love it.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Hey, what's your number?

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I am a six.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Okay, I'm a three with a two-wing.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I am a six with an eight wing, so.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Okay.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I am, and I am 100% a six. And how I learned about the Enneagram was Kathy Bush, who owned Synova before Melissa and I one day sent us the Enneagram books, and my business partner and I got these books the weekend before we were traveling for work. And Melissa goes, I don't know what to think about this. Like, did you just get a self-help book sent to you that is supposed to help us with our own leadership? And we read it on the plane separately. And we came in, and she sat down, and she goes, I don't like it, but I'm a one. And I was like, I don't like it, but I'm a six. And what I love about this is when we help our leaders identify their personality sort of styles. But then it's in a very understandable system like the Enneagram, right, where I can say in a day which, a six is very protective. Makes sense. Crisis counselor, you've worked in victim services for years and to say, well, I'm in my protector mode. So when my staff or anybody that I value in my circle is feeling threatened, watch out. I am the one you want in the room. Hey, do you want me, like, doing our detailed budgets? No. You want Melissa, who is the one who's very methodical and detail-oriented to be running the back-end operations of our business. So when we give these leaders the tools and say, take them to your team, help them understand who you are, how you function differently as a team, it can be incredibly empowering. And I think those are the types, the tools that our leaders need. The Enneagram is not the end all be all. It's just one small piece of something that we systematically developed with our, within the certification to help leaders understand how can they lead better? How can they be better understood? And then, in turn, how do they better understand their teams to be more effective?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah. And you're spot on with this. Because even on my team, we put everybody through the Kolbe, and I've done Enneagram, but nobody else on my team has. But every single one of these that I do, I am your classic. So that's three visionary entrepreneur quick start squirrels. I get distracted by new shiny objects. I want to do all these things. I think I can do all these things. And then, you know, you need somebody on your team who says, wait a minute, not really sure that's going to make a whole lot of sense right now. And I think it at first gives you an awareness of how you approach the work, how you approach other people, and it always starts there. But how valuable to have this as part of a certification? I don't know that I've ever seen any other certification that actually walks you through as part of it, some self-reflection and some real like an intentional look at how you approach. Like I said, either the work or the people and going back to that whole level of support, what does that mean? It's just seems so simple. But not everybody's doing this. They're telling you what they need, so you built it for them. This is what they're saying that you need. Now it's not like whatever they said you're going to do. You've got a whole evidence base. You've got amazing experts on your teams. But, you know, there's this combination of this is what they're telling us. What does the research show? What does the evidence support? Let's build something that's really customized for them. And that's what you've done. And we're not suggesting that every organization creates some type of program like that for their leaders. But I think it starts with asking the question, what do you need?

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
100%. As well as, I think I'm one voice, right? You're one voice, and we can have one conversation. But when you, the magic that happens in the certification in the conference, even just the two of us talking, is that level of validation, understanding, and vulnerability. And I think we do group coaching, and we call it group mentorship, where really, there is an expert coach in that session, but they're really mentoring each other. And the vulnerability that happens is tremendous. So we have one of our pillars is on well-being. And most people think well-being is very one-dimensional. And there's a real science behind well-being. And what does the Perma model look like? And then they have a coaching session. And I wasn't in that particular session. They had it last week, but my staff called afterwards and they were Lori, what happened in that session was nothing short of transformational, because they were able to be open and honest and feel psychologically safe to share about not feeling enough about having imposter syndrome, about feeling completely depleted. But I also think when we give them the tools, this job does not have to suck the life out of you. And we need strong nurse leaders who want to do that job and who want to feel successful leading the charge. And I know so many of them, and they love their job. They just need the tools to be given to them. And leadership development, unfortunately, is not always seen as a priority.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh my gosh, I want to take what you said and just package it up and shout it out to the world. Leaders want to be good leaders. There are amazing human beings out there. The issue is we're not giving them the space to be as great as they could be. And what we need to do is give them exactly what you said. We need to give them the tools that they need to be successful. We need and I'm going to tap into what we've already talked about. We need to create space for them, give them permission to go home after work, and not do work, like permission to not answer text messages from their employees on the weekend or when they're on vacation. You know, you've got to have a backup for them, and that all needs to be communicated to your, you know, the people there. But if you do that, think about this. If you take your already potentially great leaders, did I say potential only because we're not even seeing the potential that they have because of all these challenges? You give them the space, you give them permission. You help them to set boundaries. You give them the tools that they need. Game changer. We wouldn't. So, the next AONL report, if these things happen, will paint a very different picture.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Well, and I think we have to start advocating for ourselves as well. And I think whether we're in our jobs or we're looking for a new job. It is about, what are my non-negotiables? Because everybody has a non-negotiable. So, I came from a work environment that was. It was really that 24/7. When we moved over to Synova, we thought, we have a blank slate. What do we want our team to look like? What do we want our work function to look like? I was a single mom, like right around this time, I was going through a divorce, and I really needed to have some level of control over my time that I was spending at work. And at first, I think it took us about 18 months to say, between 5 to 8 at night, no texting. And we actually hired one of our team about 18 months after, and she came on staff, and she was like, wow, you mean you're really not going to text me at night because she had worked for us for ten years in an environment where there was no boundaries. And so unless the house is on fire and there is a hurricane coming, we really adhere to that. And when we are on vacation, we are on vacation. And we might have a check-in where Melissa will say, hey, do you need anything? And we try really hard to say, nope.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Got it. That is, just that, I think, is wise. It's smart, and it's doable. You're not saying don't bother me. You're not, like you're just setting boundaries. And I shared this quote, and I won't be able to repeat it exactly, but it's basically, if you don't value yourself, you won't value your time. And if you don't value your time, nobody else will either. And it starts with valuing yourself. So you're on vacation. Oh, for goodness sakes. Value your time. You know, to step away from work. Because we all know the studies that show when you come back from a vacation or taking some time off, that you're in a better place mentally, physically, emotionally, to then tackle some of those fires that we tend to need to put out all the time. But I think it's two different things. It's you have to be intentional yourself. And I love the conversation that we've had about, you know, what's important to you, what boundaries you know, you want to set. What are your core values? But then, if you're an executive listening to this, you're in a director level, and you've got people, you've got to create that. You've got to create space for your people to have that conversation. And I think by doing that, we can avoid this sort of like we're on this path right now. That is not good. And based on everything that you're hearing and based on what I'm hearing from our leaders, we need to do a course correction right now, and I think this is part of it.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I agree 100%, and I think it is valuing being vocal and knowing that we want to set up the people who are coming behind us for, you know, for success as well. And Becker's report just did a, I just was reading an article where one hospital system instituted unlimited PTO, okay? And I was like, whoa, in a hospital? No.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah. We're so and so they're on vacation again. And what do you mean by, again, they have unlimited PTO? Yeah.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
So we have unlimited PTO at Synova, which was, again, we were like, okay, but we're not a hospital, right? We don't provide 24/7 direct patient care. And so it's easy to be like, well, do this. This is what works. But I think it's a valuable conversation to be having with people who you're trying to recruit into your organization or if you're in your position, which is again, I value a work-from-home day, I value being allowed to take my PTO. I love organizations that really enforce and have. You can't roll over your PTO, or you can't cash it out. You understand? And that's I understand that that may not be everybody's perspective, but in America, we don't necessarily do vacations or time off the way they do in the rest of the world. And if you, we had a board member from the UK on Synova, and she was like, wait a minute, how much time do you get off? And you mean to tell me you can't take a month off? I mean, she said it at an open forum, and people were like, what you hear? Like, wow, we have to change the conversation, Renee. Which is if people are just complaining, which that doesn't. My dad was a CEO, and he always used to say he wasn't, you know, he didn't have an MBA. He didn't even graduate from college. But he was really successful in what he did and kind of was a self-made man. And I remember, he's actually passed away ten years ago, just next week, and one of the biggest leadership lessons he ever gave to me, which was don't come to me with a problem, come to me with a solution. And I think a lot of times we circle in the negativity, and we feel like, well, I can't control this. I work for this huge system. Everybody's voice can be powerful and important. And if you come solution-focused, I think we'll have better outcomes and change.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So you come at it not from a victim mindset, but from a growth mindset, a change mindset. And I spin it in a positive way. What can we do? You know I can't do that I can't. Well, what can you do? Like, what's one thing? And I'm all about the one thing, you know, making it simple to start. My whole philosophy on pretty much everything that I do is to layer. You start small, and you build from there. So, even boundaries start small. You said between 5 and 8. I will not answer text messages. And then you have to communicate that you have to let people know. But maybe it's from 5 to 8 on Fridays. I won't, you know, answer my text messages, but you have to start somewhere. And your dad was a very wise man. It's not enabling people, but empowering them to be part of the solution. And so, Lori, we could talk about so many more things. But as we wrap up, I want to ask you one question. One of the things that I've noticed and I've been at I spoke at the last two, you know, the PLF and the NLF, you know, the NICU and the perinatal leadership forums, your team, they are always so positive. They are servant-oriented. They look like they're having fun. You can tell that they enjoy being there and they enjoy the work. So how do you and Melissa, as owners of Synova Associates, how do you can you give us like share one strategy that helps you cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture at Synova?

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
One thing. Well, I will say we practice what we preach. First, we are a family. We are very service-oriented, and we really care like our heart is out there. And a lot of our team come in. They have, this is their second job. And what we love is the energy and the community because you're all out there serving, you know, moms and babies, and your jobs are so hard. So we get to spoil and take care of you. But also, we take care of our team, and we make sure that they feel valued. We huddle every morning. We ensure that if there was any problems or questions. Again, I'm a six. So if there is something that comes up and one of my team is uncomfortable, or I don't like what I'm seeing, some sort of instability or inappropriate behavior, I'm all over it. I will not stand for that at all. And that is the type of work environment that I would want to work in. And I think, above all else, we look at how do we take care of the people who took care of us? You know, we're working moms. I'm a NICU mom, and I want to make sure that we give to leaders what I don't know, they always get at work, which is validation and support and truly love. Like, we love each other. We love our community. We love our jobs. I feel like the luckiest person to have this position as my full time job and getting to work with people like you, who are really committed to seeing nurse leadership evolve into a rewarding and fulfilling job.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
That was so beautifully said. And you're right, it shows. You can't fake that, because I've seen them in that little conference room that you had off to the side when nobody else was looking. And they're the same, like it's all about integrity. But I love how you love each other. I'm a big love person. If you haven't noticed that I love things. Okay, I was listening to Mel Robbins. I've been listening to her podcast. I'm like, oh my God, do I sound like that? Because I'm like, oh my God, I love this, I love you. I mean, this is kind of my language, but it's true. I love the people who we work with, and you do, too. And I think that's another reason why, Lori, that you and I are so much in aligned with each other. So thank you for the great, great work that you're doing for leaders in this perinatal and neonatal space, they truly, they are. Absolutely. You're like the glue that keeps them all together, and they're benefiting from you and your entire team and all of the great programs that you have out there. And the most important is you're giving them a space to be a part of a community so that they have a safe space so that they can talk. So I want to thank you for being here. I also want to let our listeners and our people who are viewing this on YouTube know that we'll have some links in the show notes. So definitely, Lori, is it okay that we include your LinkedIn profile?

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
Absolutely.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
LinkedIn. We'll also put a link to Synova Associates so that you can check out all the great things that they do. I know we talked about that AONL report. I want to put a link into that. And how about I also add the Instagram link? I'll just Google it because I've done it, but I'll just put that in the show notes if anybody's interested. Like, ooh, I wonder what number I am. So I'll put something like that in show notes so people can check it out. But yes, I'm a three, you're a six, Melissa's a one. Yeah. So it's kind of nice. Maybe that's also why we get along so well because we're different.

Lori Gabriel Gunther:
I know it's always so interesting. Our team is all very different. We're all different numbers. I hang out with a lot of eights, which makes sense to me. So I just want to say to Renee, thank you so much for your tremendous support of our community over the years, but also for the incredible work that you do. I feel really honored to be on this podcast, but also to be a very valued colleague and friend, and I just watch and admiration.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you. That was very kind of you. Yeah, it's a love fest. That's all I'm gonna say. Like, I love you, you love me. It's all good. We have great companies that are out there doing amazing work, and it's really to equip these leaders with the knowledge, the support, the tools, the resources they need to truly be as great as they can become. So thank you. And I want to thank all of you, listeners, or if you're watching, thank you for being here. We know that you have competing demands, especially if you have 76 direct reports. And I just really appreciate you being here. If you like this podcast, if you can, please give us a review, give us a rating, and please share this with others. So, thanks for being here, everyone. Take care.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found this podcast helpful, we invite you to click the Subscribe button and tune in every week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility, visit us at HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee, be kind, take care, and stay connected.

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