EP 65: From Recognition to Action: Building Inclusive Cultures That Last

CB_64. Jessica Pettitt: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

CB_64. Jessica Pettitt: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings. But what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Hi, everyone! Welcome back to another episode of the Coffee Break podcast. Thank you for being here. Most of our guests are healthcare leaders. Well, today we have a special treat. Today, I get to have a chit-chat with Jess Pettit, who is actually a DEI consultant who was not in healthcare, but boy, does she work a lot in healthcare for, I think, obvious reasons. And I would say Jess knows us well. She knows the challenges that we face well, and I really wanted her to be a part of this podcast because we can learn so much from people in other industries, people who aren't nurses, who aren't physicians, but they can really bring so much value to the work that we do, and just, I just want to welcome you to the show.

Jessica Pettitt:
Oh, absolutely. It is an honor to be here, just like it is an honor to work with healthcare professionals. So thank you very much.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, we need you. Everybody, everybody needs you. It's all right. I'm going to tell you a few more things about Jess, and I think this is really super cool. So perhaps it's her Texas roots, I didn't know you were from Texas, but Jess believes that to thrive in this world, you really need to ride two horses, one of giving and one of receiving, so I just love that. For Jess, the giving horse is her passion for service, and the receiving horse is really the high she rides when entertaining her audiences. And trust me, I have been in Jess's audience and it is an exciting, wild ride. You will never be bored if Jess is on the stage, okay, it's just been great. For almost ten years, Jess rode one horse by day, and that was serving as an administrator in student affairs for university diversity and inclusion programs, and then by night, performing and hosting three times a week doing stand-up in New York City. And apparently, she has George Carlin has a nickname for you, and I don't know if you're going to tell us that. And she shared an egg roll birthday cake with Bob Newhart. It's true. So that is really super cool. But eventually just discovered that she could ride both horses at the same time in the same career, because that was probably getting difficult. And now that she's a speaker in the DEI space, nearly 20 years and a half million audience members later just gallops. I love this from coast to coast. Delivering her good enough now message to anyone willing to take a leap towards creating a much more inclusive organization. And I first met Jess at the National Speakers Association, one of their conferences, when you did a pre-con, and I remember the topic was really interesting to me. I cannot remember what it was, but I remember walking into the room and I said this prayer, dear Lord, please put me in the right room, at the right seat with the right people, and that's when I met you. And I'm like, thank you. Because this was the right place, the right people. And you were just fantastic. So, thank you for the great work that you're doing in this space. And I first wanted to ask a sort of broad question, why, DEI, how did you get involved in this topic? Because it's not an easy topic, but such an important one.

Jessica Pettitt:
Yeah. It's interesting is I get asked that question all the time, specifically as a white person, a cisgender person. So people are gonna understand and what I think is interesting, and I'm going to try and answer this quickly because you're probably going to have follow-up questions. But when I ran LGBT centers on college campuses, I often did ally trainings on for mostly straight people, how to be an ally or an advocate for LGBT people on campus, in the community, etc., so that was part of my job and what I realized was, is that the people who were coming to the LGBT allied trainings had other elements in common, right? Most of them were heterosexual. Most of them were white. Most of them were highly educated. Most were upper class. And instead of only working from subordinated or marginalized identities, what I realized is that I had something in common with my audiences instead of being something different from my audiences. And so, in the speaking and training aspects of my life, I decided to lean into what I have in common with the audiences instead of differentiating with those differences because we can do more work at less risk for free from our places of privilege or places of power, and I wanted to be able to have those conversations. Most of my conversations are still white, highly educated, cisgender, able-bodied people. So then, how are we now? I'm one of them, right? It's one of us. How can we do something? And I think it's a stronger position to start with. If we go back into the Wayback Machine. I am fortunate enough to have parents that didn't answer my incessant questions. As a child, I was always sent to the library, and by being sent to the library to study whatever it is, I was asking a question about. There's so many crises and power dynamics throughout history, throughout religion, throughout geography, that I just became really fascinated at who has the ability to give an opportunity and who is waiting for an opportunity or demanding an opportunity. That dynamic is just always been something I've been fascinated by. So they blended together and it became something that I am compelled to do. Now, if we back up, and then I'll shut up again. But, well, when we talk about the two lives, like working as a college administrator and then doing comedy at night, George Carlin used to call me safety. That was the nickname, really. I was safety because I had this day job, and then I had this other thing that I really loved doing, but I actually loved doing both of them. And so then, eventually, I was able to blend them both together. Or the language I like to use is ride both horses at once. And so I'm able to speak about DEI-related topics, big hard conversations, contentious topics. But we all laugh, and laughter is a great equalizer, so I think it's more effective.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Am I? You said so many wonderful things. When we approach a situation from the perspective of sameness, we actually realize that we're more alike than we are different. And I don't think we always recognize that and something that we see in the work that I do addressing workplace bullying and incivility, just we see a lot of us versus them. Okay. It's the physicians versus the nurses. It's the day shift versus the night shift. It's the, this department versus that department. And our approach to some of that is to bring the people together and actually first establish common ground. We want the same things. So what's the same about us versus demonizing one group over another group? And something that's important to me as a human being. And I think one of the reasons why I got into this work is one of my top three core values is kindness. And I always say kindness, one human to another human, independent of age, gender, race, ethnicity. Like all of those things, it's just, how do we get to that point where we are recognizing that we really, as human beings, are more alike than we are different? But then you've really taken it to the next level. And so I'd like to talk a little bit about your approach, especially because I know you do a lot of work in healthcare, and I don't know how best to frame this. So I thought, I really want the listeners to know that the first book you wrote was called Good Enough. And I remember I took a picture of it, and I wish I could find it somewhere in my iPhone photos, but I was on the airplan,e and I'm like, reading your book. And I remember posting it on, I think, The Power of Women. That was a great book. And now you have a second book and this one's called Almost Doing Good. Here we go. If you're watching this, take a look, and we'll have a link to Jess's book in the show notes. And what I really like about this book, and maybe we can start with the basic framework that you have in the book. It's about preparing, recognizing, and responding. But maybe you can share with our listeners who predominantly are healthcare leaders or approach to DEI and really how to create a more inclusive workforce.

Jessica Pettitt:
Sure, you also said a lot of really good stuff. So, I'm going to work backwards from what you said. So first off, the people who want to provide a more inclusive space, which, for the record, is not everybody, but let's just say because some people don't think that it's something they need to worry about. I don't think that people are like evil or good, that I think the idea of inclusion is, this is where recognize comes up, is that sometimes it's really hard to recognize a problem you don't experience. I feel included. I'm having a great time. Why would I need to do anything else? Just do what I'm doing. I'm not even doing anything, and I feel included. The first step of inclusion is recognizing not everyone feels included. You may feel included, super, but not everybody does. So then, how do you recognize a problem you don't experience? Step one, then, I think when you really start doing inclusion work, the real first conversation is who are you excluding? Who is not allowed here? And even the like softest liberal person will be like, oh, everybody's included. You don't have enough chairs for everybody. So, how are you picking and choosing who can't come in? Because once we get comfortable with who we are excluding, then we can actually consciously begin to include other people, right? We can know how we're making those choices, when you talk to, at the beginning, about an us-them situation, which isn't special to healthcare but is certainly illuminated inside of the castle. That is a medical center. And what I think is important to remember is that there's always skills to be built. So if we're five stages or so of skill building, if we start with only awareness of yourself or your department or your team and you're not thinking about anybody else, anything else, anywhere else, just you, that's great. That's how you establish like policies, and protocols, and norms within your own kind of bubble. Then, all of a sudden, you become aware that there are other people, and you either like the other people more than you, like where you're at, or you don't like them, but you create an us and them, and then you pick. You want to be a them, or you're an us, right? Okay, great. Now, you've created the skill of differentiation bonus. What you were talking about is the next layer of skills. And that's really minimizing how we are different. And I don't want to make light or minimize those differences. I just want us to also see that we have something in common. And when you can see commonality but not actually dismiss those differences, that's the hard part, because you don't want to not see them and only focus on what you have in common, because then you're really negating experiences you have and experiences other people have. When you're able to embrace the fact that those differences exist and may or may not even have anything to do with you. Now we're actually coexisting. We're like into acceptance or adaptation kind of stages. The book, basically the most complicated concept in the book is that you have to do everything all at once. It doesn't matter where you start, which point of entry there is not a number one. I intentionally have step zero every time I have a list, because even there's always stuff you need to do before the first step. And so if we can normalize the complexity and disrupt this kind of post-it note notion that if we do this and this, then we'll never have to work on it again. That's what needs to be disrupted. And then do whatever you can at any entry point because it's better than doing nothing never.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So I want to ask you a question. I really want your input on this, because this is not my area of, I would say, expertise. And I really rely on people like you to help me to be much more aware of even my own biases and how I approach situations. But I heard this from a colleague of mine who had good intentions, and a lot of this when it comes to DEI to I think there are good intentions, but people don't realize how others may perceive their good intentions, and sometimes it can, I'm going to say backfire. But she shared a situation where somebody who was a white woman basically said to a group of people who were not. Everybody's the same. I don't see color, I don't see color. And then somebody of color said, but then you're taking away who I am. I want you to see my color, and I want you to respect me because of it. I don't want that to affect our work together. But I want you to see my color. And I don't know, can you just speak to that at all?

Jessica Pettitt:
Sure. I think the good intentions is that what, as a white person, in this case, is trying to say is that they don't negatively or positively treat anybody different based on what is appear to be a melanin difference in someone's skin. So that's a lot of words. So I'm just going to say I don't see color. But you have to be able to identify even the people who believe they don't see racial differences. They recognize them. And then it gets filed in, like, this is a thing that you're not going to make a judgment about. So it's it is still a recognizable piece of someone's existence. So, saying that you're not seeing it, the woman of color is exactly correct. You're like the leading a very large part of my experience by saying that. And notice very few, if ever, does a person of color say I don't see color or not acknowledge that a white person is white, right? Because that's not how power works. And so being able to acknowledge that you're having different experiences. Now we're back to the model in the book, is that if you can respond instead of react because you've recognized a problem that you don't necessarily experience, then you're actually more prepared to do something. A lot of us spend all of our time in preparation mode, but we don't actually respond in any way with what we seemingly are prepared for. It doesn't just have to be DEI-related demographics, right? So, for example, if we take any construction site, right? So anyone working in any kind of medical center, at least 50% of you have construction happening on site right now. When a sidewalk is closed for safety because of the construction site, right? The only people who are impacted by that closed sidewalk are people who are using the sidewalk, right? So if you take the bus, if you walk on the street, if you are using a wheelchair, if you're walking your dog, if you're one of those people that rides their bikes on sidewalks, which I don't recommend, but people do it all the time, right? You are impacted by that closed sidewalk. If you don't ever use that sidewalk, you don't even know that it's closed. So then if someone comes in and says, we have to fix this because someone has to walk all the way around the entire building now because we got to figure out how to do this, and you have no idea what they're talking about. If we say, I don't see that as a problem, that's what that is. You might not see it as a problem because you aren't impacted it, so you haven't labeled it a problem. But the people who do see it as a problem are saying, hello over here. This is a problem. I need you to pay attention to it.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So what you're really referring to is human beings. How, at times, myopic we are. We see the world through our lens and don't always recognize that there are other people who are wearing a different set of lenses, because if it doesn't impact us, everything's fine, but not recognizing that it might impact other people. And we've talked a little bit about raising that awareness. That is one of our first steps in addressing workplace bullying and incivility. I always say you can't expect somebody to adapt their behavior if they're not even aware. Their behavior needs to be adapted and raising awareness. And I really appreciate your. It's got to be with you first. And really taking a look at how what are your viewpoints, your opinions, how have you contributed or not contributed? But it's raising that awareness that then also DEI can't be, do these three things and everything will be great and everybody will feel included. It doesn't work that way. And so I want to just, if you could take us back to your book and share some of the, if you want to call them strategies, what do you call them? As organizations are doing their very best to create a culture where people are do feel included, and they make sure that's just part of the way they do business, that there is a seat at the table for everyone. Yeah. Can you walk us through that? Because I don't know. Could the step one, two, three?

Jessica Pettitt:
Yeah, well, it's, I wouldn't say step one, two, three, maybe three, screwdriver, orange, wheelbarrow, four. That might be the list. But if I'm going to use kindness as an example because I know you center around kindness, right? And so a lot of us are familiar with the Golden Rule, and I don't think the Golden Rule is good enough. Better if the option is be mean or use the Golden Rule. Go for the Golden Rule. The Golden Rule is to treat people the way you want to be treated. That is a bare minimum bar, right? I would also say that like the Constitution is a bare minimum. So then, I'm not aiming for the bare minimum. I would like to do better than the bare minimum. So, when we get to the platinum rule, the idea is you treat people the way they want to be treated. In order to do that, I'm going to have to engage in a conversation. And frankly, we don't spend enough time doing that. So last night, I went to a friend's house for dinner, and we have been friends for a very long time. And because of COVID and other things, there's been like a pretty big gap in our regular interactions. So we're just like reconnecting. We honestly thought both of us thought both parties moved out of the area. That makes sense. And we bumped into each other in the grocery store. Oh my gosh, we're still here. I live in a very small town, and he is a really good cook, and he made this phenomenal baked pasta dish and a cake with a ganache layer. And it was wonderful. And because it's fall, pumpkin was a main ingredient in everything. Now, conveniently, I'm not allergic to pumpkin. I don't know that I've ever really eaten pumpkin in many different forms before. It was delicious, and it was great. His good intentions was to make a wonderful meal, right? But by asking questions. Do you like pumpkin? What would have happened if either of us was, like, deathly allergic to pumpkin? I wouldn't have even assumed pumpkin was in a pasta dish, so I probably wouldn't have advocated for myself until I started swelling up. So, I'm just using that as an example. So there's luck of the draw. Nobody died last night at dinner. We never had a conversation about it. We still haven't had a conversation about it. It was fantastic. Who knew? I had no idea. It was great. Most of our actual DEI initiatives are floating on. Nobody died. So then when somebody comes in, is someone's dying, then our immediate reaction is, I'm not dead. I don't see that. What are you talking about? So, if you need a step, the first step is to recognize there is something you don't know. I don't know what it is. And you don't know what it is because you don't know. But can you get comfortable with, huh? Tell me more about this. That's the real first step is to be curious and to ask questions. The next one, I would say with most of my clients, and these are specific in like higher leadership folks, is they have so much responsibility that they basically make very quick decisions to get it off their desk and onto somebody else's desk, so then they made a decision. So what they're likely to do is to make a habitual decision, which is something they're familiar with. And they know how to do it, but it might not be the right activity. So I opened the book with a story of I was so angry at the CEO. I pushed myself away from the table and was like, stop spit-polishing a landmine.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I've read that. And I was like, oh, she. I knew no doubt that you actually said that. But that was great language.

Jessica Pettitt:
It doesn't matter how good of a spit-polisher you are. If you are spit-polishing the wrong thing, you are actually causing more harm and more danger because you're really good at spit-polishing. So when you do think about what it is you're going to do, are you doing what's comfortable, or are you doing what the situation needs? And chances are different things. Sometimes, you don't know what the situation means, but this has worked before. Fantastic. That doesn't mean it's going to work now. And then the last piece that I would say is that you are not the only person going through a situation in which you do not know what you are about to go through. So why are we not showcasing our own learnings, our own failures, and supporting each other in our communities and across the industry? That's my end of the book.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You summarized it very well, but there's a lot of goodies in this book and a lot of. And what I really loved about it, Jess, are some of your stories and your examples that I think you can, anyone who's reading this book can resonate and relate to many of them. But it's funny you mentioned the food and asking questions. So, I have severe food allergies. I actually carry it's a business card, so I have a lot of them that basically say, I have these life-threatening allergies. So I appreciate it when I go to a restaurant. And the first thing the server says after they introduce themselves is, does anybody have food allergies? Because I've got my card ready to go. It's asking questions and being curious. And so I'm going to share something. And I don't know how I feel about sharing this, but I have, I'm originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We're all white. We're all white, old, and crusty. Okay. And now I moved to Tampa. There's a little bit more diversity here, but really, I grew up in an isolated white community. Where I live now, one of our neighbors is from Jamaica. Her name is Paula. Probably one of my favorite people in the world. And I was curious about some things that she was talking about, even her hairstyle. I remember asking her a question, but I didn't know if asking her a question about her hair would be offensive to her. And you know what she said to me? She said, I actually like it when people ask me questions about me, about where I'm from, about these types of questions because it makes me feel that I'm visible, that it makes me feel real like I'm a real human being. Because I'm always curious about what other people eat and their cultural habits. And I'm always curious, but it just reminded me the importance of getting to know someone. And you mentioned it really just having conversations with them and asking the questions and being curious because we can't solve a problem if we don't understand what the problem really is. And I do this a lot with our work with bullying and incivility. We do a lot of relationship building getting to know people because it's harder to be mean to someone if you know something about them, and appreciated that in your book, to really taking a look at that whole prepare and recognize piece. Can you tell us a little bit more about this whole concept of disruptive behaviors and the power dynamics? Because I'm going to bring it back to my world. But what does that mean? And how does that show up? And from the perspective of what can we do about it?

Jessica Pettitt:
Yeah, sure. I think the, I'm trying to like, how do I center this or not center it, but summarize it to get it down shorter because I know we're short on time. But when I was getting my MBA, I was introduced to the Fraud Triangle, which is what started all of this. And the fraud triangle is from research from the 50s. And basically, it is why primarily accountants have the correct ingredients in place to create the most or to do the most fraud. So they have the opportunity, they usually feel some kind of external or internal pressure, and they can rationalize the choice. And something about this triangle bothered me because it's referred to still today as the fraud triangle. And what I eventually realized was, and I think it's because I did a big rabbit hole research dump on whistleblowers because I was fascinated by whistleblowers in the last Presidential period. Why do people whistle-blow? And in doing that, basically the, if I summarize way too much research, they feel compelled to blow a whistle because they not. And there's something so powerful about when have I ever felt that I not do this, and I can't look at myself in the mirror. I don't feel at home in my own skin if I don't do this. And so what I eventually was able to connect was that I don't think it is a fraud triangle. I think it's a disruption triangle, and whistle will disrupt for good. They can't not say something because something so bad is happening that it's impacting them. It's impacting their organization. It's impacting the greater community, it's impacting the world. It's impacting greater generations. And that's just hanging on them while they're brushing their teeth in the morning. So they have to do something. So then I tried to think about it as a disruption triangle with the good intentions of doing good. So that's how I came up with the do-good triangle. Now, and the other thing that you said is what do we do, or how do we get better at this disruption triangle? Curiosity is a piece of it. But what I would say is a tangible action to practice is to ask a question you don't know the answer to, because you're going to be forced to hang in that space where you're awaiting an answer, right? So, the example I love to use in podcasts is what color socks am I wearing? No one listening, including you. Renee, had any idea that you do not know what color socks I'm wearing until now. Now you are aware that you do not know what color socks I'm wearing. And so if you can feel that kind of itchy. That happens because now you don't know something a little itchy is related to curiosity.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So let's stop wearing I have that.

Jessica Pettitt:
I'm not going to tell you.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh, that's mean.

Jessica Pettitt:
I know it is. It's horribly mean. But the point is to hang in the itchy, because itchy is acknowledging that we generally, and I'm speaking specifically to you, healthcare leaders, we navigate our spaces as if we know everything because we feel the responsibility for everything.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Wow, that's pretty powerful. You're right. Especially healthcare leaders who listen to this podcast. We do take that responsibility and act as though we have the answers to everything. Because by admitting that we don't, for some reason, it makes many of us feel like we're weak.

Jessica Pettitt:
And knowing and not knowing is not related to responsible and not responsible. Those are two different filing cabinets. You can be totally responsible for something and also not know something. And you're a better leader the more comfortable you get with not knowing something. So then, when you ask someone, how are you doing? You do not know how that person is doing. But because we don't listen for the answer, it's the social transaction, and that's not leadership.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
No, and it's really fascinating. If you explore that and you allow yourself, as you said, to sit with the itchy. I have actually said this. And now when I look back, I think, what is wrong with me? Why would I say that? But I'm very proud of myself that when talking about bullying and incivility in front of an audience, ask questions or webinar. People ask questions. There's not a question I can't answer. That's not true. So why do I say it? And why do people think that they need to have the answers for everything? But what you're saying, Jess, is instead just to sit back and say what? I don't know that answer, but I'm going to get curious, and maybe I might learn something that's …

Jessica Pettitt:
It reminds me, and I say this example in the book as well, is that I was on a big board, a big governance board, and the president of the board had an open-door policy. And so anytime we noticed anything, had any ideas, thoughts, whatever, we were really encouraged to, like door's always open, come on it. So I noticed something that I don't think was intended, but it really was leaving out some people that kind of went against our bylaws. And I don't really know that we should be doing this, and I think we just overlooked this piece. Genuinely, that was my thought. I didn't have the confidence to be like, what the hell are we doing? So I like went to the human and I was like, hey, I just wanted to check in. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I noticed that this is where we're going to go, but it actually contradicts this piece can, do we need to look at this? And the president of the board said, thank you so much for bringing that to my attention. I have an open-door policy. Please come in and tell me any time, anything you ever need to say. I'm here. I walk through the door, and now I'm telling you. I'm telling you the thing that I would like for you to notice. Yep. Thank you so much. And the door is always open. Come on in anytime you want. And I was just like, hello? What is happening? But I used this as such. A powerful example is that the door was not open. No, just the piece of furniture was open. But I took that literally. But I was also taking my bylaws literally. So somewhere at that intersection is my leadership confidence development of, no, president, pay attention. Page eight … Rule four. This is a problem, right? But they didn't have the leadership confidence. And likely, now that I've been on enough boards, familiarity with the bylaws. So they didn't feel like they could not know what I was talking about.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
It's something that I've heard, and I've said myself, sometimes people don't even know what they don't know.

Jessica Pettitt:
Nobody knows what you don't know because you don't know it.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You don't know. And people often think that they do. And for him, like he did not listen, he did not hear what you were saying. He did the token. Hey, my door is always open. Thanks for dropping by. I know a lot of leaders who take on that approach, and sometimes I think it's a defense mechanism because they really either are uncomfortable, they don't know how to respond. They're they don't have the information that they need, so they distract.

Jessica Pettitt:
Yeah, well, I'm going to take it even one step further. And that I think this is actually unintended harm that us consultants do because somebody somewhere taught. And it was actually a woman president, so rare. But somebody taught this woman president that the way to say the door is always open, this is what you say. And probably some bullet points as to why to have an open door policy. So she knew the script, but it wasn't in her leadership style. But she didn't know the difference because she didn't know enough about her own leadership style. So if, some blue moon, someone actually reads one of our consulting reports, they might memorize what we say to do, but they haven't internalized it. They don't know what it means, but they're just like repeating the words that sound good. And frankly, as consultants, I think we do this too, because we don't know. We're just weird outsiders. Cash and checks, like looking at stuff. Why don't you and I have shared clients, and even though we both had the same client, we both saw very different things, and we also saw very similar things. And so I know that in my report, I was able to really reiterate many of your points, even from a DEI lens versus a civility and bullying lens to prize power dynamics there in common. But to the HR department, we were two separate consultants, focusing on two entirely different things. But it all matters because it's all the same mess.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah. Very true. And I always say human behavior is so complex. It's not a and you mentioned it earlier. You can't just do one, two, and three. You can't have open door policy. And then these bullets because we're dealing with human being,s and it's recognizing that and creating. And I think it goes back to what you said that awareness of yourself first, that's really powerful. But just if somebody's listening to this right now and they recognize that they're really not where they need to be as an organization, as a department, as an individual leader, and they really want to make a first. I know I keep going back to steps. They want to take an action. What would you recommend someone do to take that first step towards being more aware? Preparing. Recognizing. Responding. All the things that you talked so beautifully about in the book.

Jessica Pettitt:
First, I would say, get used to the itchy, right? Asking questions that you don't know the answers to. I would also encourage just open, silent air space. I think what is often the case with DEI is that people who are bringing me in are trying to fix something external to them, but they're not realizing that they are part of the group. They're not outside of the group. Technically, they are out of power dynamics, but they're power dynamics have set the expectations for the group. And so then, how do you disrupt those expectations that you may not even be aware of or notice? So eat your lunch in a different place. Yeah. Do something different. Park in a different parking spot. Disrupt what is so completely routine that you won't even necessarily know what you're getting ready to bump into. And when you do bump into it, you should shut up and really observe and listen and pay attention. Boss man, boss woman. Whatever starts eating lunch in a different chair. It is very confusing to other people because it has been an unspoken rule that you don't touch that coffee mug, or you don't sit in that chair, or you can't eat in this space because the boss is always hanging out in there. So when those things start to change it, the ripple effect will be able to illuminate some of the things that have just become normalized, and you don't even know about them. You don't know what you don't know. And your job is to go figure out all the things that you don't know. And the extra bonus is be completely comfortable. I am not there yet, but you're striving for it. Completely comfortable that every time you find out there's something else that you don't know, there's 3000 more things you don't know that you don't ask.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You are so right, because it scares me sometimes how much I really still don't know. But it's one of those things where, again, I think another key takeaway for me, Jess, is recognizing that just because you don't see something as a problem, it could be a problem for someone else. And I think it just it's going to help me to just to be able to take a step back and have a pause and just consider just because this doesn't affect me, it probably affects someone else. And I talk a lot about put your curiosity hat on and asking those questions, and love the tip of just eating in a different place and parking in a different place, because it almost forces you to see things differently. Instead of we get into a routine, we get into habits which can affect our perception on the people and the workplace. And I think really wise words from you, Jess. So thank you. If people want to connect with you, how do they do that?

Jessica Pettitt:
Sure, you can go to GoodEnoughNow.com, but it's a lot easier to spell than my last name. But they all go to the same place. I'm either good enough now or just pet it on whatever social platforms. The book that you mentioned just released in October. The Amazon gremlins are very happy about it, so Almost Doing Good. The paperback is out. The e-book is out in January 20th. The audiobook will be out, but I'm always open. The door is open. Whatever I can do to help, feel free and I really appreciate it. If I can, I know that's the big end, but I want to make sure to also end that, not only is it on the negative side, but it can be a positive side too, that just because you tried whatever it is in 1972 and it didn't work, doesn't mean it's not going to work now. It's not 1972 anymore. For some reason, when you were talking, I was thinking of a hospital recently, and they have 15 minutes standing meeting every morning as a shift change, right? What if you did something different during that shift change? Now what's hard is you've got to what's happening on the floor, what's going on, etc., so that things have to happen. But I want you to think about the meetings where you give someone five minutes to tell you what's the most important thing in their department, what would happen if you just focus on that department that day? Nobody else gives a report, just that one. They get 30 minutes, right? Imagine what it would mean for that person to help, to be able to prioritize what to fill 30 minutes with instead of five minutes, right? They all know they've just been waiting for the time for a leader to be able to get the information. But we actually protect our leaders up from information so they know the highest ranks know they don't know. They know. They don't know. That's why they supervise people. So you can reach me at good enough now. And I would encourage people to imagine what they are being protected from and how to ask more questions so that they can get to the stuff that other people are waiting for them to get to that they don't even know, they don't know about.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, I think this is I almost feel like this is one of many conversations we should be having about inclusion.

Jessica Pettitt:
Like I should write a book about it.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh my God. And I also want to share. So, we'll have all of the links to Jess's books and her websites in the show notes, LinkedIn profile too, we're going to throw that in. And I also want to let you all who are listening or watching know that Jess is a fantastic speaker. So, if you're looking to bring somebody into an event that you're doing, I cannot do enough to recommend Jess. It was funny preparing for this. I was on her website, and I just want to go through it and make sure. And I started watching some of her videos, and I couldn't stop because my husband said, what are you laughing at? I'm like, oh my God, I'm watching Jess's videos. They were so good. And so, I highly recommend, if you're looking for a speaker for your organization to go ahead and reach out to Jess. And I think this would be a great book for a journal club, a book club, if you're doing that in your organization because I'll end with the reinforcement of what Jess said. And it really we need to get curious and ask questions and just sit back and not really a reflection, but like if we all just did that pause and ask questions and get curious about people, we're going to start noticing that there are issues out there. Even if they don't affect us personally, they are affecting people. Jess, I want to thank you so much for being here. You were just wonderful to talk with, and I love all the interactions I've had with you over the years through the National Speakers Association. I just think you're super cool, fantastic human being. So thank you.

Jessica Pettitt:
Absolutely. Thank you very much. And oddly, it goes right back to the pre-con where we first met. I know the whole idea was the program is called do you? And the whole idea is to figure out who do you want to be and how do you want to be. Who are you judging yourself against and for good, bad, and ugly? And then what can you do to contribute or collaborate with those people and why? I wanted to say that was is that at the heart of that is generosity, vulnerability, authenticity and curiosity. That's where we're at.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
That is, oh my gosh. I want to go back to that session that you did and hear it all over again, because it was really fantastic. And that's when I became a super fan of yours. And thank you for being here. And I want to thank all the listeners. Or if you're watching for taking the time out of your busy day, I know you are super busy, but really appreciate that you're here. I also want to ask you if you really liked this podcast. If you could rate it, post a review for us. Thank you and share it with others who may need to hear this, who may need to start their journey towards a more inclusive workplace. So thanks everyone for being here. Thanks again, Jess. Take care everyone.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found this podcast helpful, we invite you to click the Subscribe button and tune in every week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility, visit us at HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee, be kind, take care, and stay connected.

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