EP 54: From Accountability to Ownership: Creating a Values-Driven Culture

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Dr. Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings. But what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Hi, everyone! Welcome back to another episode of the Coffee Break podcast. I hope you're having a great week. Whether you're listening to this on an audio podcast or you're watching this on YouTube. Today is an exceptionally good day for me because I get to chat with my friend and colleague, author, speaker and consultant, Joe Tye. Hi Joe, welcome to the show.

Joe Tye:
Thank you, Renee. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh my gosh, Joe is one of these people I've known for a really long time. And I'm going to tell you a couple of things about Joe, but I want to tell you from my perspective, Joe is one of the kindest, most generous, most grateful humans I've ever met. I started really following Joe. Gosh, I don't know how many years ago. And the first time I ran into him was at a conference. I think it was at AONL. Joe, right, either AONL or Magnet. And we met, and we started talking. And every single year, we check in with each other. Hey, are you going to Magnet? Hey, are you going to AONL? And it's always something that I look forward to because he's just a generous, grateful, happy guy. And sometimes life is a little rough and I like to surround myself with amazing, kind human beings like Joe.

Joe Tye:
Thank you.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
But let me tell you a little bit more about Joe. I love this about him. He says he's a recovering hospital administrator. Okay, and I like the whole recovering part. He is the author of The Florence Prescription and a gazillion other books. And I grabbed this out, this is my own personal copy that I have from Joe. And if you haven't read this book or heard of it, you haven't been paying attention. You really need to get a copy of this. It's just a fantastic book. And he really focuses on culture work. So he and I are in similar spaces, and that's why we have such great synergy. But he works on looking at establishing a culture of ownership, not accountability and value based culture. And we're going to talk about all of that today. But first, and this is how I first heard about Joe's work was with the Pickle Pledge, and I heard about this. And so, I have to start by asking you, what is the Pickle Pledge? So, if anybody hasn't heard about it, what is it, and how did you come up with it?

Joe Tye:
It's a very simple promise. It says, I will turn every complaint, my head is killing me, into either a blessing. Thank God for modern pharmacology. There's a pill I can take or a constructive suggestion I should drink some water because the first symptom of dehydration is often a headache, and there's really nothing you can complain about that you cannot turn into a blessing and or a constructive suggestion. And what it does is it takes you from victim mode, and if you're complaining, usually it's about some first-world problem, my flight was delayed, Alicia, not having to walk, takes you from victim mode to self-empowered mode. What am I going to do about it? What am I going to do with the time that I've saved? And there's a footnote to the Pickle Pledge that says, by taking this pledge, I am promising myself that I will no longer waste my time and energy on other people's whining, blaming, commiserating, and nor will I bring them down with mine. It's, emotions are contagious, for better or worse. And what happened is I was working with a hospital and we decided to turn it into a challenge and to have people turn complaints into contributions, and they did pickle jars. And so we set up the Pickle Challenge for charity, and we challenge organizations to make it fun. They have pickle jar decorating contests, they have cake making contests, they have pickle eating contests. And at one place, they decorated a truck like a pickle. And we raised something like $130,000 for whatever charity the organization picks. But what that does is it's a constant reminder to stop being negative, to stop being a victim. And I've seen some I've seen architectural creations made out of pickle jars, but my all-time favorite was just a simple jar with a simple sign, and it said, be brave enough to start a conversation that matters. And nobody's ever solved a problem by complaining. Nobody's ever helped another person be better by talking about that person behind their back. It takes courage to stop complaining and actually do something, to stop talking about somebody and actually go talk to that person. And that's ultimately what this is all about. And it sets the much like the work you do with bullying. If you're tolerating a lot of toxic emotional negativity, if you're tolerating bullying, it makes it really hard to bring in positive stuff and have people embrace it.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Wow. Love this. So simple. And I love the fact that you turned it into something fun that people could really have a good time with. And I'm sure you would agree with this joke, but tell me, we can all fall into the trap of complaining. I know, myself, there are times I have a journal, and I'm always writing. Okay, these are my goals today, and these are some things I'm working on. Honest to God, I have at times put no complaining today. Okay, no complaining. Oh my gosh, I have to get on an airplane. Oh my gosh, I'm so tired. I have, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is what I wanted. This is an amazing opportunity. We fall into this trap of complaining, and we don't realize it. And so I thought for a month that was going to be my little challenge for myself because I always love to challenge myself. No complaining. And what I did in addition to that was no complaining. But I had to give a compliment that day. A sincere compliment to someone. Okay, I don't know. I think I need to do this again because I think I've been complaining a little bit lately. He hears the good, the bad, and the ugly with me. He knows it all. And you and I were talking a little bit before we hit record. I've been, I had been working with Lake Charles Memorial Hospital and doing culture work there, addressing disruptive behaviors, really working with their leaders. And the first day I was on site, I walked down the hallway, and on their window was a ginormous green pickle, and it said Pickle Pledge. And what I love about this is that you've inspired people directly, so you've worked with organizations to help them to implement this whole Pickle Pledge challenge. But you're making a difference in organizations, and you didn't even know about because we were talking about this. You didn't even realize that they were doing the Pickle Pledge. And I had my little pickle, and I had the little cards that you have. I think that's what people you do amazing work with, value-based cultures and all of that. I think you're going to be forever known as the Pickle Pledge Guy.

Joe Tye:
But actually, I have a nightmare that my tombstone will say, Joe Tye, the pickle guy. And I really am pleased to see people using it, but I want to be remembered for something else.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
But I want to be remembered for more than pickles. Although I love pickles, they're good for your gut fermented. They're really great for your microbiome. But it's the whole concept of what this means, and I love that. It's practical, it's simple, it's easy. It addresses something that we all do. But it's a reminder. However, I want to talk a little bit now about your values-based culture work. And I think the concept of shifting from this accountability to ownership is huge. If we could actually do this in healthcare right now, we wouldn't have half the problems that we have. So, can you tell us about your work in values-based culture?

Joe Tye:
Yeah, let's talk about accountability to ownership first and then shift and talk about values-based leadership and values-based culture. 30 years ago or so, the buzzword of the day was empowerment. We were reading books like the One Minute Manager, Instant Empowerment, zap, and now the buzzword is accountability. It's like we tried the empowerment thing, and it didn't work. Now, we're going to hold people accountable. And yeah, you have to hold people accountable for some things. But when that becomes your culture, when it's in one of your values, like I care, and the A is accountability, there's some real downsides. And I'll mention five of them. One accountability is always retrospective, always after the fact. You hold people accountable for something they have done or failed to do. You can't hold people accountable for something you want them to do, so it's not motivating. Two, it's always punitive. You hold people accountable for screwing up. You do not hold people accountable. You don't call someone and say, hey, you did a great job on this project. I'm going to hold you accountable. It's always seen as a stick and never a carrot. And so you create. The more you focus on accountability, the more you create anxiety and fear of being held accountable. Third, it's always pointing a finger at somebody else. I know you've heard this too many times. I've heard people say the problem around here is nobody gets held accountable. I've never heard anybody say, the problem around here is nobody holds me accountable. It's always somebody. It's always blame-shifting, or it's demotivating. And it's not just demotivating for the people being held accountable. It's demotivating for the manager who's got to hold people accountable. If you're constantly having to call people into the office or correct them because they're not taking ownership for their work, and you have to hold them accountable, it it takes away from the things that you really want to do that are most important to do. And finally, and maybe most important is an excessive focus on accountability undermines the principles of just culture. Just culture says if something goes wrong before we blame an individual, we look at systems. We look at technology. We look at culture. Only then do we start to allocate individual blame. But you cannot hold systems, or culture, or technology accountable. And as soon as somebody says someone's got to be held accountable, you bypass all those things that we say about just culture and you go right to looking for who's the culprit. And yeah, you've got to have some level of accountability, but if that's your primary focus. A culture of accountability can take you to good, but it will not take you to great. That takes a culture where people are thinking like owners.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
That's powerful right there. That you only get to a certain point. You'll never be great if all you're focusing on, and I never thought of it from a this is a retrospective way of looking at culture is accountability is saying, did you do these things? And I know we're going to shift into the ownership. But yes, I see a lot of blaming other people, and the work that we both do, that is always there. It is always, especially when you're trying to address disruptive behaviors, or there's an incident, and you pull in a team member into your office. If you're in a leadership role and you say, okay, tell me what happened, there's always a quick pointing the finger at someone else. It was radiology. It was this person. It was that. It was this other department. It wasn't me, and we see that a lot. But, and it shows up when looking at people being held accountable. But I'm going to tell you, Joe, in the work that we do with even like one of our foundational courses, eradicating bullying and incivility, It's, we always say it's okay helping people to know what bullying is, what it's not, how it shows up. Okay. How to confront and how to hold people accountable. Oh, I think I may need to relook at this because I know what that means, but if you take a step back, it's, I don't think anybody can hold anyone else accountable. I don't think you really can in a way that helps them to improve, because, like you said, it is it's a stick. It's not a carrot; it's a stick.

Joe Tye:
Yeah, I think of accountability at three levels. Most of the time, when we talk about accountability, we're talking about hierarchical accountability. That's top-down and boss-to-subordinate. The marine sergeant yelling at the recruits. That is appropriate when you're trying to train Marines. It's appropriate if somebody has been embezzling money or whatever. A much more powerful level is cultural accountability. That is us holding each other accountable. That's why nobody smokes on airplanes anymore. We don't have to have a smoking police. The minute somebody likes a cigarette, everyone else is going to say, put that out. If you have a culture where if somebody is bullying another coworker, they don't get called in by the boss because it doesn't get to that point. Their colleagues say, we don't do that here. It's much more powerful. And the highest level is personal accountability. I don't talk about other people behind their back because it violates my integrity. It violates their dignity. And that's where a culture of ownership is. We are holding ourselves accountable. We don't need to be held accountable by the boss. And I think the greatest example, I know you and I both love the DAISY Foundation. And when I was working on. Yeah, when I was working on the case study for DAISY on and the book on how the DAISY Foundation has influenced the global healthcare landscape. Which is an amazing story, but I read hundreds of DAISY nominations, and when you read them, it really strikes you that none of them are for things that people learn in nursing school. They are not for things that are in the job description. They are not things that they were held accountable for. In fact, if they didn't do it, nobody would have ever noticed. They're because they're taking ownership for their profession, their work, their patient. And my favorite, one of my many favorites. But there was a nurse caring for a pediatric patient, and he had a pet dinosaur that he brought in with him and this nurse. Everything she did for the kid, she did for the dinosaur, she took its temperature, and she came in with a sweatshirt with a dinosaur on it. You don't learn how to take care of a dinosaur in nursing school, and you can't be held accountable for not having done that. It comes from thinking like an owner.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
This is so good. I wish every person who worked in healthcare heard what you just said, because you're right. It's not anything that we teach in school. It's that personal accountability. And I love what you said about the three levels of hierarchy: the culture of accountability and personal accountability. How does that? Because I talk a lot about peer-to-peer accountability because exactly, you should not have to tell the boss, if I'm working with someone and they do something disruptive, I, you, and I both want to create a world where that behavior is immediately addressed by whoever's around there, doesn't matter what role they have either. But I do talk a lot about peer-to-peer accountability. Should it be? Should we change the terminology, then? Was it peer-to-peer ownership, or is it maybe not? It's maybe it's not peer-to-peer, but it's culture accountability or culture ownership. I don't know, because I say a lot of times, it's peer-to-peer accountability.

Joe Tye:
Yeah. If you break the word accountability down, it means able to be counted. And the most important things in healthcare you cannot count. How do you count pride? How do you measure compassion? And so I think just using the word accountability implies somehow that it's something that can be quantified. And you can't quantify the things that that most affect a great culture, and that's peer-to-peer. One of the things we learned during COVID, I talked to a lot of mostly nursing leaders. What are the things that helped you get through COVID? And at the top of the list, second on the first, was visibility being there, but having some sort of real-time peer-to-peer support. And there are actually programs like H3, Healers Healing Healers. I think that's what it is, where people go through a two-hour course. And if you're having a crisis, instead of having to wait a week for the EPA, you can text somebody and say, I just had to zip up another body bag. I can't do this anymore. And right there, you get support. And to me, that's what a culture of ownership should feel like.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So I'm wondering, as you said, the terminology we need to really explore that because words matter. They send certain messages that sometimes can be misinterpreted by other people, and sometimes, a person using certain words misinterpret their message. I love the peer-to-peer support and what that looks like. And going back to those levels and that middle one, the culture accountability. It's that every single one of us in this department, in this organization, that we take pride in our culture, we own our culture, and we immediately reject anything that's going to harm our culture and packaging that in a way that there's I have that personal responsibility for my own actions, but also a personal responsibility to duress anything that's going to affect the integrity of our culture. Once you establish it and you identify, this is the type of culture that we want to create, you've got to defend it, because of this, you have people who are new, people leave different situations, change the dynamics of the workplace. But I love this whole concept of taking ownership of yourself and your culture, instead of just trying to like, it's always the boss who's responsible for holding people accountable. They've never been able to do that. What makes us think that they can do that now, especially in today's work environment? Oh my gosh. All right. I love this conversation. I want to shift a little bit now to your values-based culture. So, we've talked about the difference between accountability and ownership. I think it's fantastic. And I've got some things that I, my brain has to chew on for a little while. But can you talk to us about how you've managed to truly transform cultures by looking at values? Can you tell us about that work?

Joe Tye:
Sure. But first, a caveat: I have not changed culture. What I've done is given people tools, help them diagnose their culture. I talk about the invisible architecture of an organization. When I walk into a hospital, my first impression is the physical facility, the carpeting, the wallpaper. But if I'm a patient there for three days or four days, that's not what I'm going to tell other people about. I'm going to talk about how they made me feel. In other words, I'm going to talk about the culture. You would not remodel a bathroom without a blueprint. But then we allow something as important as culture to evolve haphazardly with no plan. So, we challenge people to create a cultural blueprint. And I use a construction metaphor where the foundation is core values, and by that the stated values of the organization, but also the personal values of individuals, challenge people to think about their values and how they relate to the organization's values. The superstructure on that foundation of values is culture, and actually define what you expect your culture to be. We did a cultural. We helped the Children's Hospital of New Orleans create a cultural blueprint, and they had a statement of cultural philosophy that has eight points, that these are non-negotiable if you want to work here. And my favorite is we place our children can play, and it says it's not optional for you to smile as you walk down the hallway. It is not optional for you to laugh. It's not optional for you to be friendly because those are essential elements of the healing for our children and their families. So it's not optional. And then the interior finish is attitude in the workplace. And we often start on the inside and work out. That's why the Pickle Pledge usually comes before talking about what your culture should be and redefining your values. And one thing that you and I talked about this before we started recording. Many hospitals have a statement of values that's just boilerplate you have up on the, I care. You can almost guess integrity, compassion, accountability, respect, excellence, and that's fine, but I expect those things from my local grocery store. How do you create a statement of values that is unique, that inspires people, something that people are willing to take home and share with their kids? Southwest Airlines, when they started, famous for their great culture. They had three core values: warrior spirit, the servant's heart, fun-loving attitude. Anybody who's ever competed with Southwest: Braniff is out of business now, United had to shut down their Southwest knockoff because they know what a tough competitor they are. I have heard hundreds of stories of Southwest Airlines people going above and beyond the call of duty to help people. I once had the privilege of having dinner with Herb Kelleher, the founding CEO, and we were at a nice steakhouse. Four different people came up and interrupted us and said, Mr. Kelleher, you don't know me, but. And went on to tell a story about how they or a family member was treated by Southwest and fun-loving attitude. Google Marty Cobb, flight attendant. Here's somebody who makes the safety instructions look stand-up comedy. How often does a flight attendant get an ovation for doing the safety instructions? And those three values really molded who that company is. And what I challenge people to do is take the values off the wall and ask the question, if we were starting over today, what would be the core values? We would want to be implanted in our organization. And very often, it's going to be something different than what you have now.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
We talk about this a lot too, with, we work with our clients to create what we call a compact of professional behaviors, which basically says this is how we treat each other in this space. Okay. We support each other. We help each other no matter what. Whenever, when it rains, everybody gets wet. Those types of things, but they create it. And then, that's step one. Step two is making it a living and breathing document. It can't just be a piece of paper on a wall that nobody looks at, and starts turning the corner of the paper itself and starts to discolor over time. It's you have those values, you have these commitments. But then, how do you apply it in practice? So, what has been your experience in helping organizations then take those values and integrate it into everything that they do so it truly becomes just the norm here? This is how we function as an organization.

Joe Tye:
A couple of things. One, in several organizations I've worked with, we actually wrote a book. I wrote a book, a fictional fictionalized story. Go back to the beginning, the founding, like for Midland Health in Midland, Texas. I worked with them on defining their core values, and they came up with three of them very specific to that hospital: that community pioneer spirit, caring heart, healing mission. And when I came into the CEO, and I said, here's what I think you guys really value. He said, that's it. They took to the board. Same reaction. So I went back. I studied their history, their culture. It was founded by a doctor in a hotel room back in the late 1800s and early 1900s. They had they have a statue on the third floor of an African American doctor who was the first African American woman to practice medicine in Midland, and she really made the community aware of their prejudice. So I wrote a history of the how those values evolved, how they're reflected today, and then I edited it in the year 2040 with an imagined CEO looking out over the community. This is who we want to be. So that's one way. Do something unique, something nobody's done before. I think here are a couple of things that I think everybody should do. One is, other than putting it in writing, somehow use the power of rituals. We used to have rituals for everything how we eat, how we pray. Now we have meetings, and it doesn't take a lot of time. We've talked about the Pickle Pledge. Every organization I've worked with where we've really seen an impact has used staff huddles to. They've started with the Pickle Pledge, and people know it by heart. And that day's promise from the self-empowerment pledge, one promise for each day of the week. And at first, they're just saying the words. But after six months a year. The words are really sunk in, and they're holding themselves to that, holding each other to that. I think capturing stories is really important. This is one of the things that's so powerful about DAISY is they capture stories that say, this is who we want to be. This is us at our best and sharing those stories, and they happen every day. But we're moving so fast that we don't capture them and finding a way to capture those stories. I think a third thing is encouraging people to bring some joy to work. What's something you love to do? Bring it to work. I met, I was at a hospital in California, and I met a housekeeper who sings for his patients, and they told me a story about how a terminal cancer patient, she knew that was going to be her last night. She wanted to hear amazing Grace, and he sang amazing Grace for her. You get goosebumps on top of goosebumps, and the family appreciates the doctors and the nurses. But what they're going to talk about is that housekeeper I met, a NICU nurse who writes poems for her. Those tiny little babies and their parents are so anxious. She writes poems for the parents. Those are the things that people remember. And you bring some sort of your own passion to work. And I think the most important, Hewlett-Packard popularized MBWA, management by walking around. The most important thing is you show up as a leader, you get out of your office, out of your cubicle, you go talk to people in the Lord of the Rings, which I think is the best book that's ever been written on leadership, by the way. Tolkien had Gandalf the Wizard show up where he was most needed and least expected. And if you and I know you've had this experience, you talk to people who really did a good job of navigating COVID. They're leaders. They suited up. They showed up on Friday night in the ER. They showed up when they were preparing breakfast in the morning to thank people for being there. They knew that they couldn't do the real work of culture building remotely. They had to show up. So those are some of the things that I've seen especially work.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Every single one of these strategies story, rituals bringing joy to work, the MBWA, they're practical. If you just start somewhere. And I love the whole story thing, because, in healthcare, there are a lot of left-brained conversations, evidence-based practice and data and metrics and caps and all of those. And we are, of course, we're left brained human beings, but we also have a right brain. And that's the creative side, and that's the story. And that's, again, why you and I both think DAISY is so powerful, because it tells the story of people who do amazing things, that they don't see them as amazing in the doing, but on the receiving end, make all the difference like the housekeeper who sang. So the more you can tell stories of the good things. The things that you want to see, I think can really reinforce culture. I do want to share an example. When you were talking about the managers, they have to be there. They have to be present. I will never forget this. Working with an organization. It was in California and COVID hit, and I was having my coaching call with one of their leaders, and she shared this experience that Joe, I don't even think she realized how powerful it was. And it's funny because I just spoke at a conference the other day, and I shared this story as a reinforcement of how important it is for the leader to be present; she said they were told that they were getting their first COVID-positive patient, and her staff were almost paralyzed by fear, and they watched. Whoever brought this patient up from the ER put the patient in the room, and this leader is in the hallway, and she sees the nurse and the nursing assistant standing at the door, paralyzed by fear, and she looked at them both, grabbed the gown, grabbed the mask, grabbed the gloves like, alright, let's do this. And she walked in first. Yeah, and I call it, you got to get dirty. You got to be willing to get dirty first because then you're really role modeling, okay? The behavior that you want to see in everybody else. But it's also part of it, and I wish I would; I wish I knew what the value or values were in that organization because it would be really cool to see if there was a way that behavior aligned with those values. I think it'd be so cool, but I don't know what that is right now.

Joe Tye:
One of the things that I challenge people to think about is, what are the values that saw you through COVID, and if they're not in your current statement of values, should they be? And I bet there are things like courage. I bet there are things like adaptability. And if those aren't in your core values, perhaps they should be. And part of management by walking around, I think, is empathy. A quick story. My mom was in hospice at a hospital in San Antonio, so I was in her room late. It was probably midnight or later, and in the next room, there was a patient with dozens of family members, loud. You could tell it was a handful for any nurse. And I was out in the hallway that late that night talking with the the unit manager, the nurse supervisor and this young nurse came out and asked a question, and you could tell that she probably had gone through nursing school during COVID, had done a lot of stimulation, really not had patient interactions. And the manager gave her a technical answer, and you could just see her, you know, deer in the headlights went right over her head, and she says, thank you. And so I tapped him on the shoulder. I said, I know she got what you said. But could you explain it again in a way that a layperson like me could understand? And he did. And you could just see the lights go on in her head. So he turns around to walk back down the hallway. I'm going back into my mother's room, and this young nurse, whose name I never even learned, said, excuse me, can I give you a hug? That's what she wanted. She needed her manager to give her a hug, to walk in with her and say, it's okay not to stand out there in the hallway and give her the technical answer and then go back to his office. And that's living your life.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
It is. And I think we get so caught up in the busyness of life and our never-ending to-do lists. And as we said earlier, meetings, okay, after meeting, and we don't sometimes just taking that moment. Really, Joe, how long did it take for that, for you to hug that person? Five seconds. And I, and it's being aware of giving people what they need when they need it. And that only happens when you're paying attention, and you're fully present. And oh my gosh, this has been such a great conversation.

Joe Tye:
It took five seconds, but I'm sure that the only thing she will remember about me is that hug. The only thing. And that was years ago. And sometimes it's those little small things that are really the big things.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I couldn't agree with you more. And sometimes, we focus too much on the big things. We forget the little things. And so, Joe, as we are wrapping up, if there's a leader who's listening to this right now and is thinking, oh my gosh, yes, we really need to shift from this whole accountability to ownership, we need to be looking at our values. What would you recommend that they maybe do first? What's one small action that they can take to start down this path of truly creating a culture of ownership and people who are supporting each other? What would you recommend?

Joe Tye:
Conversations. Talk to people. Bring in an outside person. If you need to have focus groups, have one-on-one conversations. Talk to people about what makes you proud to work here. What are the values you want to see here? What are your values? How do we make sure that we are supporting your values? Just take a year and have those conversations. And at the end of the year, pull the brass plaque off the wall and see how you would rewrite it. That's what I would recommend.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I so appreciate that. It's not trying to go in right now and fix anything, but it's first engaging in conversations with people about what makes them proud, what matters to them, what would they like to see. Because things change over the years, and we have something very traumatic, such as a pandemic. If you haven't had those conversations since before the pandemic, it's time to have them now. So thank you so much for being here, for being a guest, for sharing your amazing, great work that you're doing. If people wanted to connect with you, what would be the best way to do that?

Joe Tye:
Either I'm on LinkedIn, so just Joe Tye on LinkedIn, or my email address is [email protected]. So either way.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Okay, awesome. And we'll have in the show notes a link to those too. And we'll also have a link to Joe's book. The Florence Prescription. We'll have that in there. And anything else that we talked about. If we can find it, we'll go ahead and put it in the show notes. We'd like to give people resources after they listen to one of our shows. Again. Joe, thank you so much for being here. Are you going to Magnet this year?

Joe Tye:
I am, I am, I'm planning to. There may be something that comes up that I'll know by the end of early next week, but I wouldn't miss it unless this other thing comes up. I will see you there. Well, share a cup of coffee and a conversation. It's been. Is truly a pleasure to be here, and I admire the work you're doing so much. To have the courage to take on bullying and to expand from that to healthy workplace is so important today. Never been more important. So thank you for what you do.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you. You're welcome. And it really started with recognizing what my values were, and one of my values was kindness. And I just couldn't sit back and say that's just the way it is. People are cruel to each other. Oh, it goes against who I am as a human being. And that's what grounds me in this work is trying to create that world where kindness is the new norm. And so I look forward to seeing you at Magnet. We always got to spend a little bit of time together, looking forward to that. And I also want to thank all of you who are either listening or watching right now. If you really like this show, if you could rate it, give us a review, and share it with others. So again, thank you for being here. We know that you're busy people, but you've given up a little bit of your time to listen or to watch this episode with Joe. Thank you again, and we'll see you all soon. Take care.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found this podcast helpful, we invite you to click the Subscribe button and tune in every week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility, visit us at HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee, be kind, take care, and stay connected.

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