EP 50: The Impact of Self-Reflection and Team Commitment in Healthcare Leadership

Coffee Break – Dr. Carl Kirton: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Coffee Break – Dr. Carl Kirton: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings. But what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Hi everyone! Welcome back to another episode of the Coffee Break podcast. I hope that wherever you are that you're having a really great week. Today is a day that I've been looking forward to for quite a while. Because today, not only do I get to chat with an amazing leader, but I get to chat with a friend, and so I would love to just welcome to the show Dr. Carl Kirton, who is the editor right now the American Journal of Nursing. Carl, welcome to the show.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Thank you. Renee. Thank you for inviting me.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Gosh, again, I've been so looking forward to this. So I love it when I get to meet an amazing leader and a leader who inspires me and who I can learn from, and that they also become a friend. Someone I care about, someone I think about, and Carl is one of those people. And I thought before I share some amazing things about you and what you do. I thought maybe we could start by telling our audience how we met. And gosh, it's probably 4 or 5 years ago.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Yeah, right? Absolutely. It's a very interesting story.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, so it started with, I gave the keynote presentation at the Organization of Nurse Leaders in New Jersey, their conference, and someone in the audience heard speak and went back and said, Holy cow! We need to bring Renee here, so maybe Carl, you can take it from there.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Sure, yeah, one of my nurse managers, where I was the chief nursing officer of a hospital, came back to me and said, you've got to hear this woman's talk. And I said, okay, I was going to the National AONL conference, and I think it was the last day. I think it was an extra day, and we had to stay an extra day, and I went to hear your talk, and I have to tell you, I was blown away by the talk because I thought I knew everything as a nurse leader, and I sat in that audience and learned things about myself that I didn't even know. I remember you giving examples of things that I had just left my organization and I did and were not the right way to handle problems within the organization, and I was immediately learned a great deal about how I needed to deal with problems within my own organization. And so I said we had to bring Renee to the hospital in order to help us with the work that I knew needed to be done within that organization.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, I remember that. I remember speaking, giving that keynote, and I remember I was contacted by some folks in your organization, and then you came to another presentation that I did. And then it's been a relationship ever since, and actually still doing a little bit of work there. And it's interesting because we thought that maybe it would just be, okay, I'll come in, and I'll do this work for a year. And it didn't happen that way, did it, Carl?

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Absolutely. No, yes, in fact, in my mind, it was going to be I'll come in for a year for a few trainings, and then we learned a lot about myself. We learned a lot about the leaders within the organization. We learned a lot about the organization and how much work needed to be done in order for us to achieve a healthy workforce and a healthy organization.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, and this is what doing this work for 13 years now; we're at the point where we almost won't go in and just do a workshop, and that wasn't what we did, but your organization at the time, either. But we know a training program doesn't work, not when it comes to culture change and sustaining that culture change. And so this was our Department of Culture Change initiative, where we go in, and we work with various departments, and we really get down and dirty. We work with the leaders and their teams to truly transform culture. What I loved about our time together was how involved you were as the executive leader. And so I want to tell the audience a little bit more about you. We already said that you're currently the editor-in-chief of American Journal of Nursing. You've been a nurse leader for a really long time, and you were that CNO for five years, Carl.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Yes, at that point in time, I was a CNO for five years but had about 15 years of CNO experience underneath my belt. And then when you've done CNO work at many different organizations, you think you've seen everything, you think you've experienced everything. In fact, I remember saying often that if you've been a CNO, you've seen everything. But organizational culture is very dynamic and different at every single organization, and there was a lot to be learned at the organization that we worked at. And certainly, not only did the nurse leaders in that organization recognize that it was time for a change, right? And I, as the CNO, recognized it was time for change, but the organization itself recognized that it needed some work to do. And that's why we engaged Healthy Workforce Institute to come in and work with our team in order to help us achieve a healthy workforce.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, and it was your role as CNO that really enabled you to make that decision to bring in somebody external. Because a lot of times people, they think they can do it internally, and what we've learned is they don't have the bandwidth, nor do they have the expertise. And there was a little like, maybe I should say, a lot of trust that you had in bringing someone like us in to really work with you and especially your leaders. And one of the things that I've learned about you, first of all, you're like a forever student. So I remember when I was there, you were always taking some class, you were teaching a class, and now you're in a PhD program, right? You already have, and now you're getting your piece.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Yes, I have a DNP, and now I'm working on my PhD at Seton Hall. I'm in dissertation phase right now and getting ready to collect my data. I'm doing some exciting work around looking at executive behaviors, particularly as it relates to obedience and executives, which I think is an important topic in this day and age. And yes, I'm always an eternal student, but I love lifelong learning, and it's always to improve the workplace. And the work that I'm doing is going to improve the workplace tremendously, so I'm very excited about the work that I'm doing. Thank you.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Every time you and I would meet, you would be talking about, and then I got to the point where I'm like, okay, what class are you taking now? Where do you teach now? What program are you in now? But you also have done a lot of work in the field of HIV and AIDS, which I actually didn't know that about you, and I've learned that recently. And I just think that's such important work that I'm sure is very rewarding for you, but also probably very difficult.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Yeah, so it's a very interesting story about that particular work. When I started my career in nursing, I started off as a critical care nurse, and I was one of those people that, you know, I would eat, sleep, and breathe critical care. And if you told me today, I'd be doing what I'm doing. I told you I was going to be a critical care nurse. But I was a nurse in the early 80s, and at that time was the HIV and AIDS epidemic hit New York City very hard. I went to school to become a nurse practitioner and wanted to be a critical care nurse practitioner, but all we could find was an HIV and AIDS placement for me, and I went to work with nurse practitioners that ran the HIV and AIDS Service at Saint Vincent's, which is a hospital that's now closed. And just doing that experience changed my life because it was a very it was at the very beginning of the HIV and AIDS epidemic was something new, something, and I always loved learning new and interesting things. And then, I got to meet patients and their family and all of the issues that emerged. And I just fell in love with the specialty. And then, I became immersed in the world of HIV-AIDS. I worked as a nurse practitioner. I was head of the professional organization on both the local and the national level got to travel the world. I did some research on AIDS vaccines. I got to spend time in Africa. It was and still is a fascinating career for me. And yes, I'm very much a part of the world of HIV and Aids and continue to do so. Thank you for mentioning.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh my gosh, you're like the coolest guy. I think I know just the, and the impact that you're making. And it reminds me when you see someone who is a senior level, their editor-in-chief, their the CME of a multi-hospital system. What you're seeing is the cumulative effect of a lot of other experiences that they may have had because I can't help but think that the experiences that you've had working with HIV and AIDS helped you to become a more rounded, just a better human being, which then helps you in all the roles that that you have had in throughout your career. I always think about some of the roles that even I had were not good fits for me, but boy did they teach me, and it helps me to be who I am today and what I do today. And I often think, okay, what could I be learning now that's going to help my future self? But just having that specialty and that passion, I think, is just so important for all of us because I don't know if it helps keep you a little balanced, that you've got this big job, but then you've got this passion that you're still involved as a nurse looking at how do we help these patients and their families with HIV and AIDS, so I love that about you. I love you even more now that I know that. And hello, you're a fellow with the American Academy of Nursing.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Yes, yes, a wonderful accomplishment in life. And so now I get to work on helping change policy and practice, and then being involved at the Academy is just a wonderful initiative. So yes, and very recently, I was inducted into the fellow of the, a fellow of the Academy of Diverse Nurse Leaders, which is a new fellowship that comes out of the National Black Nurses Association because I've been doing some work in the diversity field. That's another. And so I just got back from San Francisco, where was inducted as a fellow in the Academy of Diversity Nurse Leaders. So I'm excited about that as well.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Do you sleep? Do you sleep at all? I thought.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
I do; I sleep very well.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
It's probably how you can do all these things. That's what I always say. I can do all these things because I prioritize my sleep. I make sure I get some sleep. Okay. Now, here's what I'm curious to know. You've done so many things as a nurse leader. What would you say is like the biggest revelation that you've had as a leader and really looking at the workforce and how to engage the workforce? So have you. Okay, this is the big revelation that I've discovered throughout my career.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
So, I guess the biggest revelation that I've had is number one about myself, right? I think it starts there looking at yourself as a nurse leader, and I mentioned that a little bit earlier when I had went to your workshop. I thought I was the perfect first leader, right? I had been there, done that. I'd been spent many years. And I think the first thing you have to do is you have to be introspective and look at yourself in the mirror, and figure out what are your strengths and what are your weaknesses, right? Because we all have strengths and weaknesses. In order to create a healthy workforce, you have to be able to understand what you bring to the table or what you do not bring it to the table. Doing this work is also important in that you have to be ready for what you are going to see and experience. And when we started to do this work, one of the things that you and I discussed often was looking at your own leadership team and how important the leaders in the organization are to this particular work, and I had to make some hard decisions based on things that you and I discussed and observed. Oh yeah, my own leaders and their role in creating or not creating the healthy workforce. So you're going to learn things about your, yourself. You're going to learn things about your, learn things about your leaders, and you're going to learn things about your own organization as well. How committed they are, how to this work, how they're not committed to this work. We experience some of that, you and I, as part of the 3 or 4 years that we've spent together, lots of things get revealed, right? And you got to have an open and honest conversation with yourself and your leaders about what you need to do in order to advance this work because it is critical to the success of the organization.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
This is spot on because even when we go into an organization, we always start with the leadership team. I always start with the leadership team and having that executive who is was also willing to be a part of it. Not to say, okay, I'm fine, go fix my leaders or the leader to say I'm fine, go fix my staff. That's not the way it works. And what you're really talking about is not only does the leader need to turn the mirror back towards themselves, but then it's really important. And you did this really well, where sometimes you have to have an honest conversation with a leader as an executive, and maybe being in a leadership role is not the best fit for that person, and being willing, and I talk a lot about Radical Candor. You care enough about somebody to tell them the truth, just to have that honest conversation with them. And sometimes, what I find if somebody's not performing to expectations, is it a capability problem? Maybe they don't have the skills, and if you give them the skills, they can perform better. Is it a capacity issue? And right now, especially these leaders, their scope of practice, their span of control is so wide now they're responsible for so many things. So is it a capacity issue, or is it this is going back to what you said is it's something involving emotional intelligence? Do they have the self-awareness, and then can they manage? Can they look at themselves and say, okay, I need to do something differently. But then, how do I manage that? And there are some leaders who do really well with that and others just aren't able. And I remember there were a couple of leaders that we said, okay, we're going to start working with this department and this leader. And I had my concerns like, I don't know, this leader doesn't seem to really want this. And we have found that if a leader is not hungry, sometimes it just doesn't work out as well because you need the leader to be engaged. But we were able to have conversations about them and then look at what support do they need? Not only from us, but from the organization, from you and your team? And some of them really surprised me. They were able to step up and there were a few who weren't. But it's having those conversations and having the leader be willing to look at themselves as maybe not to say that they're part of the problem, but they need to become a different leader. And you've done that really well.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
I would agree. And, but obviously, you need support in order to do that. You need the right tools, the tips and the techniques, the coaching and the mentoring. And as part of this work, you provided that support, guidance, and counsel not only to me but to my team in order to help give the right support to the leader who may have needed some help and support, and along the journey. It was a great partnership. And but you have to, as you said, you as a leader have to be ready and willing to be able to hear and make the changes, and the leader themselves have to be ready for the change.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, they absolutely need to be ready, even if they're not sure they're capable. It's, I don't know if it's a mindset issue, a mindset thing where the leader has to be willing. They have to want this. And even though they may not feel confident in their ability, they have to have some courage and be willing to trust. And you've heard me say this a thousand times: trust the process. So if you're working with somebody external and they have a system, you have to trust the process and know that you will become equipped. But it starts with the mindset. It starts with their willingness, having some courage and then going back to having that support. There's one other thing I want to mention that you do really well, that I've seen other executives who don't do this. As you can imagine, we're working on culture change and behavior, bullying and incivility and the interprofessional team and all of that. So there's lots of potential conflicts. Anytime there was a situation, we'll just say, and I would say, hey, Carl, there's a situation. You never overreacted. You were calm, you were cool. And I've had situations where other leaders like, oh my God, somebody's complaining about this. And we got this, and oh, HR is involved. And I, my inside voice is saying, calm down, because I don't want to say that to someone because it's sometimes the worst thing you could say to somebody when they're emotionally distraught is to calm down. But I try to just help them. Just don't overreact to this, and you do that so well. I don't know if it's if you've always been like that or you've gotten to the point where you were able to train yourself to pause and just think through it. I don't know if you know, that's a superpower of yours.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
I actually do. Okay, I'll tell you why. I have never. Very early in my career, when I first became a nurse manager, someone had came to me one time and said something similar to what you said. They said you approach everything with such equanimity. And then I said, well, I don't know. And I'm not exactly sure what that word means. I don't know if she's insulting me or she's telling me something that's like a meditation word.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I remember exactly the definition, but I remember hearing it in a meditation, you know?

Dr. Carl Kirton:
So when I finally looked it up and said, you know, it means approaching things with such calmness and such, you just have a kind of gentleness to you. And so I think it's innate. It's always been that way. And so I was always, and I was always one of those people, even when things when I was a critical care nurse, when there were codes, or there were events, they just calmly come into it. And when I think critically, thoughtfully, problem-solving. So the wheels are going in my head. And so I think there's an innateness to it, but it's also it's just that, you know, when you're approaching a situation, you have to be thoughtful about it and just not. I'm not a reactor. And so I like to think through things and think about alternatives. And I suspect it relates to my nurse training because that's how I approach a nursing problem. When you gather your evidence, you think about alternatives, you make decisions. So, I guess it has to do with my nurse training. And so that's a way in which I approach things. I'm always taking my time and thinking about things, and so I guess it's.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I am very envious of that because I'm actually the opposite. I react, I don't know if it's my Italian. Everything's urgent, everything's a disaster, everything. So it's very I always say, and actually, I'm a business coach and we talk about this from time to time because it comes up. I'm a very binary thinker. I'm very black and white. I love you, I hate you, everything is great, everything is horrible. And obviously, those are people who react to things like, oh my gosh, this is a disaster. And you're like, it's okay. This has been happening for a while. Chill out, Renee. It's good. And it's realizing that life is pretty gray, and sometimes there's messiness in the gray, but it's such a good. I don't even know if it's a skill, but it's just a wise decision, especially if you're the executive leader is for you not to overreact, to pause, to think. And you're a processor. I'm very quick to make decisions, but there's benefits in being a processor and giving it some time. And I think that's what makes you very successful. And leaders, if you're listening and you're reactive, just remember this. Just take a breath, pause, think it through. But you've done that probably better than anyone I've ever met, Carl.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Well, thank you.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
All right. I want to shift a little bit and talk about some strategies. Okay. I know that you have picked up on some strategies that you found to be very effective across your tenure as an executive leader. Strategies that were effective for nurse leaders who really wanted to change culture and improve the workforce.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
I think we talked a little bit about it. You got to first make your assessment of your leaders and your team, and people have to be ready and right for this particular work. So you don't you never want to force people who are into it. That's never going to work. Because when you force people, they're going to resent the fact that they have to do the work that they've been asked to do. Careful assessment of your leaders and those that are not ready. You just got to give them time and help them see value. For example, I can remember I don't remember this specific leader, but I remember one unit. We also did engage staff in this particular work. And I don't know if you recall, I remember there was a staff nurse on our Healthy Workforce Committee. I know the unit wasn't ready to do all of the work. But I remember this one staff nurse was part of the committee went around and just put a small note on everyone's locker. I don't know if you remember, but it was a post-it note, and it came back and changed not only the culture on the unit but the leader's approach to it. You know, all of a sudden became instrumental, just that one small thing. So sometimes you just need a small nugget, right, in order to help move that particular agenda forward. And I never, ever forgot that word. That nurse did just by putting a small note on everybody's locker, something you said. I hope you have a good day today. And I believe there were tears around that. People who were the hardened, staunch I'm never going to change overnight. They changed, right? So it's tough times is no small thing. And then they could be big things, right? I remember all what I was a big round around the unit because we had a lot of work that was being done across the units, and I remember going to the neonatal unit. I had no idea that this was happening. There was a big white sheet of paper on the wall, and all of a sudden, there were all these post-it notes on the wall because a leader is at today. Did you witness somebody being in civil to someone? And they were like, yes or no? Did you do something about it, or did you not just let it? The most impactful thing that I that a strategy that this nurse manager used in order to help change the culture. I don't know if.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I have a picture of it. I do, yeah.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
It was wonderful. And for the nurse leaders out there, I hope you post it so you can post it sometime. It was the most amazing thing that I have ever seen that change culture on a unit. It still to this day, it still gives me chills. So it's these kinds of strategies, and I have to say we would never get there without the wonderful work with Renee and her team to help us get there because these nurse leaders were just, embraced this work and created these successful strategies that change these cultures on the changed culture, on the unit. But so I give thanks to Renee and her team in order to help us helping us on that journey. But small things can change culture, and big things can change cultures. And Renee and her team certainly helped out our leadership team get there through these successful strategies.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you for that. And I just heard from one of the leaders that we're working with right now, and we're wrapping up the system that we implemented. And she said, we knew we had a problem. We knew that there were strategies to help solve this problem, and it was with behavior and conduct. But what we did was we gave them a system. We basically told them, this is what you do, but Yeah. You need to have a system. You can't expect your leaders to figure it out for themselves. Because I tried to figure it out for myself when I was a frontline leader, and I failed miserably because there was nothing that really helped me as a leader to know how to address these issues and truly build a healthy work culture. And you make such a good point without making the point. So, I'm going to make the point. It can't just be the leader. It's got to be the entire team. And it can start with just one person who takes it even upon themselves, to do something like put a sticky on everybody's locker or, and I know exactly who you're talking about, in that NICU. We did such great work there. Transformational. These the people on the team, they wouldn't talk to each other. And now they're sitting there collaborating on how they can make their culture better. I was like, oh, I'm like, I remember just being there with that team and seeing from the first time, we don't have a problem. We don't know why you're here. It's the physicians. It's this one. It's that one. It's the management. To being in that room and listening to them talk about how their culture is better and how they're having honest conversations with each other. The team member, the team member. It's just you give them a system, you support them. And I'm going to close the loop on this one, going back to what you said at the beginning, you have to make sure the leader is ready. Because if they're not, this will not work. And I remember we have an online program that a lot of leaders have gone through this course. It's eradicating bullying and incivility, essential skills for healthcare leaders. And we do this sometimes as a cohort. So, working with you, Carl, and your team, everybody got access to it. But there are some organizations that they can't do that kind of a deep dive, but they need to give their leaders some skills and the knowledge and the tools. So we'll enroll them as cohorts, and we'll sit with the executive leaders, okay? Who should get access to this? And when a leader says when an executive says, oh, we need to put this person in because they're a problem. They've been a problem for years. I always say they're not the right person. This is not going to fix that person. So you want to implement our system in a department where the leaders truly are a problem. We're not going to be successful. The leader has to want this, and they have to be ready for it. And as the executive, that's your job to really take a careful assessment of your leaders to say, okay, who's going to be ready to implement this process and to improve their culture? And again, we were with you for I don't know how many years, but we've seen it all. Okay. Leaders who were like, I'm not sure about this, but again, giving them the tools and the support really made all the difference. And I remember being at that council meeting with that nurse who talked about what she did, and.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
It was pretty.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Amazing. Okay, as we wrap up, Carl, what would you say? What advice would you give a nurse leader who maybe listens to this? She's a nurse. Leader is listening to this right now. And they may be thinking, oh my gosh, yes, we need to do something to improve our culture. I need to be a better leader. What advice would you give them as they start to focus on this type of work?

Dr. Carl Kirton:
So I think the first thing that I would say is that it's not as we talked about before, it's not have someone come in and do trainings, and everybody sit in the classroom and learn what bullying, incivility and workplace culture and that everybody go away and think they solved the problem, right? So that's number one. This is not a training that you just attend and think you've solved your problem. It does take work, and you have to be ready for the revelations that truly come out of it, meaning that you might learn some things you did not know before, and you have to be ready to act and make change. If you're really doing the work, you're going to learn new things about your organization, and it requires commitment from senior executives to make sure that you're committed to it and you're staying connected to what's going on within the organization. I will say there were times there were things that were going on in the organization at the same time. And then Renee would not show up at my door or show up at my door. And I remember that we had to pivot because Renee couldn't come anymore, couldn't get on a plane and come, and, but we did. We managed to pause for a little bit, but we got back on track. So you got to be committed to the work. And so, even during COVID, we remained committed to this particular work. That's how important it was for our organization. And the other thing was it started off in nursing, right? Because that's, you know, how almost everything starts in healthcare. So we started off in nursing, but we. I would also say, if you're going to do this work, this is not a nursing activity. The entire organization has to be committed. So, I had an HR partner with me throughout this particular journey. In fact, when we finally engaged the … team, HR was along with me from the very, very beginning and became part of our council. And so we had a healthy partnership in that we engaged the rest of the organization in this particular work. Other departments wanted to join the bandwagon at some point in time. I will even say during Rene's engagement, we had changes in CEO, and every CEO of the organization continued their commitment to this work because the day the new CEO walked in that door, I was in that office and talked about how important this work was to the particular organization. So we stay committed through CEO change, through COVID, and even a CEO change. Can you still work with someone? That's how important. So you got to get the A. The executives need to be committed to this particular work, and B, you have to get the rest of the organization to join you in the, in its commitment, yeah. So those would be my pieces of advice for anyone that's thinking about doing this particular work. You got to have commitment, and of course, the whole entire organization.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I remember my first visit at your hospital, and we did a lot of focus groups. We always say before you can solve a problem, you have to fully understand it. So we met with everyone; we met with nurses. We met with housekeeping, radiology. We met with everyone, leaders, everyone. And we kept hearing this. It's just going to be another flavor of the month. Give it time. This will go away, too. That's what happens. People get all excited about something and then something else happens. Okay. A global pandemic. And you're like, okay, we're going to put that on hold. One of the things that made this work, despite all the changes and challenges that you mentioned, is that even though we slowed down during COVID, we never stopped. I always say you can slow down, but you can never stop. Once you put, say, healthy workforce as a standing agenda item in your meetings, it can never come off. Okay. Even if you're only going to spend 30 seconds on it. Okay. It can never be as soon as you take it off, as soon as you put it on hold, then it becomes another flavor of the month. And I don't even know if you know this, Carl, but one of your leaders who. We were working with her department because, of course, I said, hey, if you just need somebody to talk to, please, any time I get up at 5:00 in the morning, feel free. She called me. It was 5:30 in the morning, and she said, I just pulled off on the side of the road. I need to talk to somebody before I step into work, because I feel like I'm at the breaking point. And I talked her off the ledge for 45 minutes. We just talked, and she was able to. Just because I'm not there, I'm an external person. It's easier to tell other people what's going on. And so she was able to do that. And to this day, her department is extremely healthy. I have some pictures from her department on some of the things that her champions are still doing. And it was just she was willing to, you know, reach out and get the help that she needed. And that's another big piece of this, too. As an executive, your entire executive team, they need the support, something like this. But these leaders seem to reach out for it to when they need it, like they need to reach out.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
That's a wonderful story, and it speaks to your impact and your importance to an organization when you do that. I think that's a wonderful story.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
… With her, and I cried, and I thought, here I am complaining about my life right now, and I'm in my house, and I'm I can't go out travel, I can't. And I thought, boy, did that. Put it in perspective for me. And so it was maybe a gift to her, but it was a gift to me, too, to feel like I was doing something to help. Because for a lot of us who weren't in those hospitals, we felt helpless. What can we do? That was a really important moment for me, too, in helping me feel like I was doing something to help. All right, Carl, if somebody wants to connect with you, what is the best way?

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Sure. I say that the best way to connect with me is on LinkedIn. You can find me, Carl Kirton. Or you can just go to the American Journal of Nursing website, npr.org, and you can find me just, my email is on that particular website. So, probably, LinkedIn and the American Journal of Nursing website are the two best places to get in touch with.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Awesome. We'll make sure that we have that information in the show notes for any of you who want to connect with Carl. I'll also put in there the course that I talked about and also the program that we implemented in the hospital where Carl was the CNO, if you're interested to take a look at it, and certainly you can reach out, and we can hop on a call, and we can talk about whether or not this is a good fit for your organization. Carl, I just want to thank you for being here again. I was so looking forward to this, because I think the last time you and I saw each other was at the academy, the conference that they had, and we were talking about you becoming a fellow and how exciting that was. And so I even have a really nice picture of you and I at that conference. And so it's really nice to see you, at least virtually right now, but hopefully, we'll be able to see each other in person soon.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Yes. I hope you'll be at the Academy meeting. That's coming up very soon.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I'm not sure, but I'm hopeful. Okay. You got some competing priorities. But, Carl, seriously, I just want to thank you for the amazing work that, not just the work that you're doing now, but the work that you have done and will continue to do. You're truly leaving a legacy, and you're really modeling the way for other executives. And so it's just really been an honor knowing you and working with you and having a chit chat with you today. So, thank you for your great work.

Dr. Carl Kirton:
Well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me. And thank you to you and your team for influencing my work and my life.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you, Carl. Okay, and thank you, who are listening or watching right now. Thank you for being here. We know you have a lot of other competing priorities, but the fact that you took time to listen to this podcast episode or watch this tells me that you're on a journey, that you want to learn how you can cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture. So, thank you for being here and giving us your time. And if you like this episode, if you could, please rate it. Okay, we're hoping for some five stars. Give us a review and then share it with other people. That's how this podcast gets found because we really don't do any marketing for it except for maybe a little bit on social media. So, if you could rate, review, and share it with others, I would be truly grateful. Thank you all for being here. Take care.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found this podcast helpful, we invite you to click the Subscribe button and tune in every week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility, visit us at HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee, be kind, take care, and stay connected.

Sonix is the world’s most advanced automated transcription, translation, and subtitling platform. Fast, accurate, and affordable.

Automatically convert your mp3 files to text (txt file), Microsoft Word (docx file), and SubRip Subtitle (srt file) in minutes.

Sonix has many features that you’d love including automatic transcription software, share transcripts, upload many different filetypes, automated subtitles, and easily transcribe your Zoom meetings. Try Sonix for free today.