EP 49: Rethinking Nurse Workflows: A Path To Healthier Teams

CB_49. Dr. Sylvain Trepanier: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

CB_49. Dr. Sylvain Trepanier: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings. But what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Hi everyone! Welcome back to another episode of Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. Bullying and incivility are on the rise, and it really takes dedicated leaders, like all of you who are listening right now, to actually do something about it. And today, we're going to talk about doing something about it. And we have a very special guest, Dr. Syl Trepanier, who is the system's chief nursing officer at Providence Health System. So welcome to the show.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Thank you, Renee, thanks for having me.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I've been really looking forward to this because, so you're out there everywhere, everywhere I look. You have a fingerprint in something related to making our profession better, making healthcare better. And I'm looking forward to our conversation because there are so many questions that I have for you, because you've done so many wonderful things for our profession and continue to do wonderful things. So, I can't wait to unpack all of that with you. But for those of you who don't know Syl, which I'm actually would be surprised if you didn't, as I mentioned, he's assistant chief nursing officer for Providence Health System. They actually, he's responsible for what, 36,000 nurses, right? Did I get that right?

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
You got that right.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Okay, so I'm responsible for 12 humans. Okay? And it's not easy. So you're responsible for 36,000. And it's 52 hospitals, 1000 clinics, and this is over seven states, correct?

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Yes, yes.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Amazing. A couple of other things about Syl. He's actually a fellow of the American Academy of Nursing, high five to Syl for that, and a fellow with the American Organization of Nurse Leaders. You were on so many different national and international boards. Again, your fingerprint is pretty much everywhere we look. There are a couple of other things that I really think are remarkable about you. One of them is that you are a passionate leader, and you're really looking at the next generation of nurse leaders. They're our future. And I know right now we're going to talk about this: they're struggling. So I love the fact that's one of your big passions and leaving a legacy. And I want to unpack that a little bit with you, too. Thinking about all the different things that you've done, but how do we make sure that when you're done with all these things, that you're truly leaving healthcare in a better place? So again, thank you for being on the show. I want to first ask you to explain this quote that I heard you say once. You said, We cannot protect our discipline at the expense of our patients. Because that's one of those things, Syl, that you have to chew on it mentally for a little while. So I really want to hear from you. What do you mean by that?

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
I'll start you off with it's interesting that you've captured that quote, and it is one of my favorites right now because it really makes people pause and, to a certain extent, also makes people very uncomfortable, and it's about time that we shake it up a little bit. I'm very clear that it doesn't matter how good anyone is today at recruiting and retaining nurses; we're simply never going to have enough if we keep on working the way we work right now. And when you think about that means that we have to re-engineer, we have to deconstruct our role as we know it, and that means that we need to let go of certain things. I am all for the fact that we have a very important profession; we have a very important place in healthcare to make it a healthier world. I'm very clear about that. And we can't do it ourselves. We have to do it with other disciplines, and we have to do with the entire healthcare team. So, to that end, we have to stop pretending that we're all things to all people. We don't like the fact that we have certain disciplines that don't acknowledge advanced practice for instance. We can't, in one breath, say, Nurses need to work to the top of their license, so we need to embrace advanced practice and all that good stuff. And meanwhile, in another breath, say, Nurses need to do all things for all patients. You can't practice at the top of your license if you're stuck in a laundry list of tasks that we've accumulated along the years. And I am, I'm guilty of creating that space in which nurses practice today. So, when we focus just for the acute care for a minute, I say it's time for us to let go of certain things. It's okay for others to do it. There's not enough of us. There's plenty of work to do. There's not enough of human bodies anyway, to begin with. So, we have to also leverage technology. So when I say we cannot protect our discipline at the expense of our patients is just to protect it, protect our role or a task that we're doing just because we've been doing it forever and ever. Meanwhile, we don't have enough bodies, we don't have enough, we don't have enough people. And we've been complaining about this. Gosh, Renee, I've been practicing for 35 years this year; nothing's changed. Nothing's changed.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Wow. Okay, a couple of things that you said. You're absolutely right. We can't keep doing the things that we, you know, the way we've always been doing them. And there will never be enough bodies. There will always be an incredible amount of work. And when you talked about: We need to be looking at other disciplines. We've been talking a lot here at the Healthy Workforce Institute on this whole concept of lateral agility. It's knowing who your key stakeholders are. It's breaking down the silos. And the work that we do, looking at addressing workplace bullying and incivility, and establishing healthy work cultures, every single time we go into an organization, there is a conversation, many times more conversations, that really reflect this whole demonizing other roles which the physicians and the physician know it's the nurses. And instead, to your point, if we would stop trying to be responsible for everything and this whole lateral agility, looking at who are your key stakeholders and engaging in more collaborative problem-solving. There are so many problems in healthcare right now that if you look at, we can't say it's just a nursing problem; it's just a provider problem; it's just a fill-in-the-blank problem; it's an interprofessional team problem, and it takes the interprofessional team to actually solve the problem. And curious to see if you've also experienced this whole like demonizing and the silo and how we can break through that.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Oh no, we don't have that in our healthcare system.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Wait a minute. I worked for healthcare system. Remember: we did work together.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
I know, I know, yes, absolutely, and there's way too much of that. We have to, what cracks me up is people say that they work as a team. They don't work as a team. They work, they don't. They really don't. As evidenced by it's my patient. No, it's my patient. Listen, healthcare is so messed up. It's probably the only industry that I can think of that the first bill that they send you says right on top of it, This is not a bill. This is how messed up it is. The only industry that is so hard to navigate that instead of fixing it, we created navigators.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh, good point.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Think about that. So we do have a lot of work to do, and it's huge. It's huge. It's very hard. It requires for us to let go. It requires for us to really embrace the entire healthcare. And I do believe that as we, as together, we start deconstructing how we should approach the work, I suspect we're going to identify that we may need people in different roles that you and I can't even think about today. We've been overindexing on degrees, and I think that we've also overindexed to a certain extent on experience and under, and I would say that potential, here's how I say it internally. Sometimes, experience is overrated, and potential is underestimated.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Oh yes. Oh my God.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
And don't get me wrong, I get that there are certain things that are super extra specialized, and we need nurses to be formed the way they're formed and we need. And I get all of this and, but that has its place, and its place is really, we're not, if you go back to our roots, it's not all about a series of tasks, but somehow, that's what we've become. And we need to, and that's what energizes me right now, is deconstructing that and helping and creating the place and the platform for the nurses themselves to rethink and re-engage in what is it exactly that patients need from us. And really look at it from a patient perspective: What's the population in this unit? What do they need from us? What do they need? Let's start there. Let's not start with the way we've always started, which is we have this role. And how do we divvy up the work? No, I'm suggesting what are the needs of the patients first? Let's identify that. Let's break this down, and then let's figure out who's best trained, formed, or who can we best train and form to meet those needs. And here's the very interesting thing. When we really start doing this seriously at a unit level, there are tons of stuff that nurses are doing today that, quite frankly, there shouldn't be the one doing it.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Okay, my mind right now is a little blown because you said so many things that really all come together. And so I'm going to try to articulate this clearly. You mentioned about experience and people coming into the workforce right now. There are a lot of inexperienced people in the workforce, but you also have these experienced healthcare professionals. It could be nurses. It could be respiratory. It could be any of them. What I'm finding, and tell me, Syl, if you're finding this, too. We used to have, and we'll just say with nurses, we would have new nurses, we would have nurses who were there, had 4 or 5 years experience, 8 or 9 years experience, 15, 20 years. Now we have brand new. And I've been here for 30 years. We've lost the middle. And I know, Syl, that you are equally as passionate about addressing workplace bullying and incivility, because there's no way we're going to be able to leave a legacy, that we're going to be able to transform healthcare and deconstruct the work that the nurse does if we are constantly battling with each other. And this shows up a lot with the experienced nurses and the new nurses. Nurses eat their young. We've all heard that. But now it's not just the nurses eating their young. The younger eating the experienced nurses. And when you're looking at instead of, This is my role, this is what I'm supposed to do. But coming together to say: What's best for the patient? And then looking at everybody on the team and recognizing who's good at what and who could do, take over this responsibility for these patients because that's their superpower, and I'll give you one example. When I used to work at cardiac, I worked cardiac step-down. That was back in the day when the nurses would draw all the blood gases. So I don't know what it is, but I'm really good with a needle and I love drawing blood gases. I could get that blood gas on an AFib patient with a thready pulse; I got it. Everybody knew that. So anytime there was a patient in our department that had an order for a blood gas, and I was working, everybody came to me. Renee, can you get the blood gas? Absolutely. Because that was what's best for the patient, because I was skilled at it. I loved doing it. On the opposite side, I hated chest tubes. I don't know; chest tubes always scared me, like bubbling and what chamber, what was okay, what was not okay. And I, if I got somebody with a chest tube, I'd be like, Oh yes, we'll come and check your chest tube for you to make sure it's okay. But when you talk about teamwork, that was teamwork. We recognize that there are some people in our department, some members of the team who excelled in certain things, like I was good at teaching patients, and there were other nurses who weren't. But how that all comes together to deliver the very best care with an amazing team and everything that you just said, painting that picture of what it could look like, I don't know, Syl, how do we get there? What are the, like how do we start moving in that direction?

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
It's one unit at a time. It's one group at a time. At least, that's how we're approaching it in our healthcare system. We started this journey two years ago where we invited nurses. I remember walking into this was in Texas that, I was visiting one of the hospitals in Texas, and I could see that there was a lot of there was a willingness to and they were hungry for something different because things were just not working. Two and a half years ago, I'll take you back there, this is literally right on the edge of what we thought at the time was the end of the, of COVID. Not so much, it's like where there's no pretty clear line in the sand of when that actually ended. Some people say it hasn't even ended. We're still feeling the impact of that for sure. So anyway, I'm there, and I'm having a group of middle managers and nurses that were chatting, and we're chatting about their environment, and all of a sudden, I said, I'm going to ask, invite all of you to just close your eyes for a second and imagine a world; imagine a world where, and then I just started talking about a way where they would find joy in their practice, where they're not stuck in the same old, that they're not going from one task to the next. Because I said, What I've realized over the years is, first of all, not only, so we don't have enough people. So there's that. And the only thing we've been doing is we've been robbing Peter to pay Paul. We've figured out a way to do this, but we're robbing each other from one nurse, but the net new is not there. And we're all excited that our turnover is so much better right now. Yeah, it's true, it's so much better. But it's nothing to be excited about. It's still, we're down to about 17% of turnover. From an industry perspective, it's actually really good. It's horrible.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Think about it, 17% is still pretty high.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Still pretty high.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Although, so the one constant that we have not done since I've been a nurse is we have not, is the fact that we have not changed the work. We've tried a bunch of different things, but we never tried to really fundamentally change the work itself. So, I'm running on our hypothesis. That's the reason why people are just going left to right, and then they think that it's going to be better over there. Yeah, they might be paid a little bit better. Yeah, the benefits might be a little bit different, but the work is the same. So they get tired of that and then they go someplace else to realize that it's the same old, just different names, different people, but it's the same work. So I'm thinking, okay, let's try to change that a little bit. So, to answer your question, it's one unit at a time. And I think the invitation here is for one, as leaders, you need to create the space. You need to create the space and make it possible for people to have these think tank, these. So you give them the opportunity to be thinking about how they can do things differently and to do it incrementally. Another thing that I find that we do really well in healthcare is we do let perfect be the enemy of good enough. A lot.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I couldn't agree more.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
And that's also an invitation. It's okay if you fail. I'm telling you it's fine. It's okay. And in fact, if we don't fail, I'm going to say it's because we haven't really pushed the envelope.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, we get paralyzed by perfection, and then nothing gets done. We don't even try anything. And we don't, yeah.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
So we're going one unit at a time. We give them this opportunity, and we say, What if you practiced in a completely different way? What if you leveraged your, depending on which state you are, your CNA, NA, NEC, PCT, whatever we call them, right? If anyone really pays attention to how we treat our CNA colleagues today, no one would want to do that job, and you shouldn't be surprised that more than 25% of them are turning over, and in some places, it's even more than that. On those units where we're practicing differently now, where we've deconstructed the work. So, we affectionately call it internally, it's our co-caring model that we are, that we're deploying one unit at a time whenever they're ready. We have a, we've decreased the turnover CNAs by more than 70%.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Wow. That's remarkable because that is a tough population because they come and go, and I always said when I was practicing at the bedside, I can handle more patients if I had a really good CNA, like, I could do anything if I had the support to help me. So, I wrote this down as you were talking about this. You're right. We've been circling around and around with all these problems and the way nurses work, but it sounds like we've been trying to solve the wrong problem.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
I think so.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
And what you're suggesting is that, and this is so brilliant, and it's simple when you think about it, but it's not being done. You bring everybody together, and you ask them to think differently. I've been noticing this more and more, and I actually just came back from a big conference, and I got to actually be in the audience. It was the National Speakers Association conference. I got to be a learner. It was awesome. And there was a keynote speaker who talked about the fact that we don't give ourselves any thinking time in our day. And he challenged us all not to just sit there and think for ten minutes, but think about a future state that is desirable, and that's actually what you're doing. You're getting, and you're getting, it's the whole lateral agility. You're bringing all the people together, the key stakeholders to say, Think differently, not just think outside the box; but no, imagine a world, imagine what this work could look like; take out any constraints or anything while we couldn't do that, but just create, and you're doing that.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
I'm going to give you an example. I was just in a hospital yesterday where there's one unit that they are practicing the co-caring model, and they are considering going to their second unit. I envision, and I casted a vision that more than 80% of all of our business within the acute care setting think med surg, oncology, orthopedic, telemetry, that kind of unit, that 80% of the units by 2026 are going to be on the co-caring model.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
All right. Saying it out there now.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
I'm just, I'm saying it out there, and I was talking to this leader and now I just lost my train of thought. Don't you just love that?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
That's never happened to me.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
What were you saying? Just.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I was talking about how these like giving ourselves thinking time to be able to think about a different future state, not just think outside the box, but how you're bringing everybody together to ask them to think: What could we do? What if? And not to just follow.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Yes, exactly. So thanks for reminding me, because now I remember what I was sharing with that team is that I'm going to say something that's going to be, that's just that may blow your mind away, but think about that for a second. And so now they're like bracing for impact. What is he going to say? I said think about, so I was, we were just chatting, and there was a CNA that was in on this conversation, and he was describing to me on how much he so appreciates practicing. And he used the word when I practice, which I thought. Good for you. He says, First of all, he said, our patient, which I'm like, Oh my God, this guy, this dude gets he gets it; Our patients, and he, and clearly the nurse and him working collaboratively together. And I said, imagine a world where we change our own internal barriers because, quite frankly, I know that this is our own internal barriers. But imagine this world where we give you the proper education, training, resource, and the likes, and I wonder if there's a time where you could actually assist the nurse and give over-the-counter medication in our acute care setting. Just think about that for a minute. Now, the nurse that was in on this conversation. Just like her head just went.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
We couldn't do that.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
We couldn't do that. And I said, And I really fully respect this reaction that you're having right now. And I'd like for you to say more about why we couldn't do that. Our policy says that we can. I said, Yes, that's true. It's true today. And who can change the policy? I'm sure that there is a joint commission. I'm sure there's a CMS. And I said, here's the thing regarding this. There are some states that, yes, there are some states where the roles of the CNA is very well, super clearly defined. Thou shalt do only the following things. California is one of those states. But in many others, it is whatever we train them, educate them, offer them to do. And I said, and in certain other settings CNAs do administer over-the-counter medication. So I said, Our policies, which is you're probably referring to our plan for provision of care, it's a policy that we write internally, and the external agencies are holding us accountable to it because it's our own policy. So I believe that we might have an opportunity to change that and partner with our medical staff who approves those policies with us. And if we train and educate people, I'm just putting it out there. Someone has to convince me that it's not okay for somebody that's properly trained and educated. I'm not saying we do this haphazardly. I'm saying this: we do safely for our patients. But you know what? I don't think that there's that much that can happen to offer somebody a laxative in an acute care setting. But here we are. This is one of those places where, Renee, I bet you that some people are going to be listening to this, and they're going to say, Dare, he actually minimizes the role of the nurse by asking others to do what we do today. This is a space. This is exactly what I mean by we cannot protect our discipline at the expense of our patients. And I will also say that, and I don't know if you've picked up on that; when I say this, I also say right after that, There is no discipline that has the right to protect itself at the expense of our patients. I think it goes way beyond nursing.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You're absolutely right. And that is all coming from a place of ego; that is coming from a place of self. How dare you have other people do our work? But that I hate to. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about these people, but it's the same people who complain about being overworked. It's one of those things where they complain, and then you give them an option. You give them a solution. Oh, we couldn't do that. Oh no. It's very similar to the culture work that we do that people complain about their culture. They complain about how terrible it is, how negative bullying and incivility. And then, we experience this a lot, we come in to say, Oh my gosh, we're going to make it better. And those same people who are complaining become the resistors, and the leaders get a little bent out of shape about it. And they're like, Oh my gosh, they're worse than they were before. Like, think about this. If you actually make the culture better, what the heck are they going to complain about? For some people, it becomes their identity. And I'm transferring that to what you're talking about. If we can't keep nurses in the profession because, and I'll just be general, they're overworked, okay, and we know they are, and we give them an opportunity to change that, there are some people who really don't want it to change. It's become their identity, but in order for us to move forward, I love the whole concept of deconstructing the work of the nurse. And actually, it's the work of the team, and it sounds like you've got, this is such a huge opportunity for people who really want things to get better because if you don't want it to get better, you're going to go in kicking and screaming and you're not going to contribute. And I think, I don't know, do you, have you noticed that some of those people stand out like a sore thumb? And you can usually tell the resisters?

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Yeah, you can. Yes, you can. And even on those units, it's the same. I love the, I love what you shared with me right now where so you go in and change the culture and those who ask to change the culture becomes the, you know, the resisters. Well, so we, it's not like Syl says, Okay, that unit needs to go to co-caring next. I don't do any of that. I just sit here and now people know that it's available, they just can raise their hand. So those who raise their hand, then we go in, and then we help them. And then all of a sudden, halfway through it, they go, wait a minute. We did, we didn't mean, that's really not what we meant. It's not easy even on units that think, they think they're ready to deconstruct the world, but man, is it hard to let go.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
It is, and.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
It's very hard to let go.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You just, sometimes, when I'm faced with that, like I've had CNOs, Oh my gosh, we had these complaints. They hate Healthy Workforce. They don't want Healthy Workforce here. And I'm like, okay, first of all, think about it. Okay? You have people who are saying we don't want Healthy Workforce here. This is just reinforcing that you need Healthy Workforce. Okay, do not overreact to it. There are plenty of people who want things to get better, who are willing to think differently and be part of a co-caring department where they want to try different things. There are plenty of us out there. And leaders really need to protect themselves from the clutter and just focus, especially on those people who really want change, who really want to look at, Okay, how can we do things differently? How do we make our culture better? How do we make the work better? And stop listening to the resistors and the yabba yabba. So I always say you have to address them. You have to give them your attention. But we need to stop giving them our energy because then we don't have any energy left for the people who really want to be a part of the solution, collaborative problem-solving. And yeah, I think a lot of that just comes from this place of ego. And people want to pick and choose what they're willing to do. And I'm sure you've seen that everywhere you've been. So, I cannot wait to continue learning more about the work that you're doing with this co-caring model. I look ahead at the future of healthcare, and I tend to be an optimist, and I believe things are going to get better. I'm also a realist, and I think it's not going to get better just because we want it to get better. We have to take action. We have to do something about it, and I love the fact that you're doing something. I think it's incredibly creative and that you're involving the whole team. I love that you're involving like the CNAs because I know myself and the work that we do, some nurses treat CNAs terribly, and I always think, Oh my God, how do you know? That CNA may have a higher IQ than you, may be more capable than you, but maybe wasn't afforded the same opportunity that you had to go to school to become a nurse. One human to another human. And really focused on taking off the roles and taking a look collaboratively at what are the issues, solving the right problems, and trying something. So, kudos to you. I love this. And as we're starting to wrap up, though, I do have to ask you one thing. I've heard you say this. You've written this a lot. You use the word love in your messaging. And some people like, Oh, we don't want any touchy-feely stuff here. This is a business. However, you use that word. So can you tell us a little bit about I don't know what love means to you and how you're bringing love into healthcare?

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Thanks for picking that up. I'm going to start by sharing with you something that I am very grateful for, I recognize that I am very fortunate. I was raised in an environment where I was loved. I had amazing parents. I still have a mom. Dad passed. It's going to be ten years ago this year. And I have no memory, like zero memory of not feeling loved. And I start there because there's likely tons of listeners that are parents themselves. And I, Jeff and I don't have any children. We have furry babies. We love them greatly. But not the same as humans. I certainly recognize that. But I start there because one can never underestimate the impact that we have on our children and making them feel love. And let's not assume that they feel the love. And it's okay to tell them that we love them, and we should tell them that we love them. And I believe that a big reason as to how I show up as a leader today and why I embrace love in my practice as a loving leader has everything to do with the fact that I was loved as a child, as I am still feel that love with my mom today. So, I just want to call that out. And in, this has been a journey for me, and I can't say, and it's interesting that you call that out because you're right that it's not a word that you can use in, very easily, in every organization. Not every culture could actually embrace it. In fact, I might put a disclaimer right now, and if you're listening to this right now and you've never approached this, and then you go into your work setting, and you start telling people you love them, this may backfire on you. So be careful…

Dr. Renee Thompson:
…

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Yeah, exactly. But we can, though, you can influence and create a culture where that becomes. And I think that the best way to do that is first and foremost, by understanding that, so what does it feel to be? And we can all, we all have different words for that. But what does it feel to be surrounded by a loving leader? When you put the words to that and then that translates into some action, then you can do those actions. I think the best way that I can think of it is if people look for love and leadership, you'd be hard-pressed to find a lot of stuff except over the last ten years or so, there's a little bit more, but prior to that, there really wasn't. I think before, it was more called about being a warm leader. But today you'll literally find being a loving leader, and it's the concept of being fully present, active listening, authentic vulnerability. I think vulnerability is huge. It's huge. And we oftentimes underestimate it in a place that people who are leader feel very uncomfortable. There's still this notion, I think, that we still are stuck in a little bit of a generational divide of feeling. There's my sense that they're not all generations feel comfortable being vulnerable, and I think we need to get over that, and it's okay. And I find that if there is, especially today because we have all of these various generations in the workforce, I find that everyone responds well to that.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, I love this conversation about love. And one of the things that we noticed too, especially with teams, especially now, and we've talked a lot about how to give feedback to people. So you could say something, you could give me some corrective or constructive feedback that might feel like a little punch in my gut. But if I believe you care about me, I believe that you are a loving leader versus a cold, and I can receive that way better. And having the ability to, I think some leaders think that they have to come in and they have to be competent and show their competence, and I'll see if I can find it. There was an article that I read years ago in the Harvard Business Review. It's like my go-to.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Yes! Yes, it was. Yes. No, no, but I know exactly which one you're talking about.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Should the leader come in as competent and show their, or should they come in building a relationship, showing that they care? And most, the study that they did was that most leaders think that their teams want them to show their competence, and the opposite is true. They want to first get to know you as a human being, and they want to know about you. They want to know about. And I know people are like, Oh, we can't talk about our personal life. Yes, talk about whatever you're, you know, willing to share. But they want to get to know you as a human being. And then you can demonstrate your competence as their leader. But it starts from that place of caring and being a loving leader. And so I think it's so missing right now that I hope every single leader who's listening to this right now hears your words and starts to work on being that loving leader that their teams need them to be. Oh my gosh, wow.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
Thanks for saying that. And I too, I hope that they, that people really understand what that means for them and what that means for their team because love is the, really, the core ingredient that allows us to develop that trusting relationship, and unless there is trust, you will never be able to inspire others. And if inspiration is no presence, there's no opportunity for leadership.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Okay, that was gold. No trust; therefore, you can inspire; therefore, there's no opportunity to even get better. So I hope all of you who are listening right now or watching you write that down because I know I did, okay? And usually, I say, what's one thing that a leader can do who's listening to this? There are so many things, but I'm going to end on that piece right there: stepping up to be a more loving leader so that you can establish trust and a lot of trust, working at being vulnerable, admitting your mistakes as a leader because leaders, the team's leaders lead right now, really do need them to help inspire them because there are so many opportunities to make things better. And I truly believe in human, the human being's ability to do that when guided by the right leader. And so thank you for your leadership and all the different organizations you've worked. I think you've worked pretty much all over the country. I know you've worked in Ohio and Texas, and you've been pretty much everywhere, and just really appreciate your focus on leaving a legacy because I see it, I can really see it. So thank you for being here. If people want to connect with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
They can connect with me on LinkedIn, and they can also go a little bit deeper if they want to at DrSylTrepanier.care.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
And we'll have that in the show notes.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
I don't even know my own.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
That's your name. Okay.

Dr. Sylvain Trepanier:
That's my name. That's my name. That's also another way that they can find a little bit more, particularly about loving and leading as a loving leader.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, I was on that site. You have an incredible wealth of information there. And you have a nice blog and you have, you do speaking engagements. It's, it was just really nice to see. And that's when I thought, how does this man get all of this done? And you've just done so much for the profession, and I know you will continue to do. Thank you so much for being here again. I just so appreciate the good work that you're doing at Providence and beyond. And I want to thank all of you listeners today, or if you're watching this. We know you're busy. However, showing up today tells us that you really want to become a better leader and cultivate a healthier workforce culture. So thank you for being here. If you like this podcast, please rate it, give us a review, and make sure you share it with other leaders who maybe they need to hear this conversation, too. Thanks for being here, everyone. Take care.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found this podcast helpful, we invite you to click the Subscribe button and tune in every week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility, visit us at HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee. Be kind, take care, and stay connected.

Sonix is the world’s most advanced automated transcription, translation, and subtitling platform. Fast, accurate, and affordable.

Automatically convert your mp3 files to text (txt file), Microsoft Word (docx file), and SubRip Subtitle (srt file) in minutes.

Sonix has many features that you’d love including automated translation, advanced search, transcribe multiple languages, world-class support, and easily transcribe your Zoom meetings. Try Sonix for free today.