EP 46: Confronting Disruptive Behaviors in Healthcare

Coffe Break_Dr Crystal Lawson: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Coffe Break_Dr Crystal Lawson: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings. But what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Dr. Renee Thompson.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Hi, everyone! Welcome back to another episode of the Coffee Break podcast. Wherever you are, I just, I hope you're in a really good place and I hope you're having a great week. And today, on Coffee Chat, we get to talk to Dr. Crystal Lawson, who is the CEO and founder of We Rise Up, a consulting, speaking, and education company that equips, empowers, and inspires nurse leaders, many of you who are listening to this right now. So welcome to the show, Crystal.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Thank you so much for having me, Renee. I can't believe that you even invited me onto this podcast, because I'd have to, when I first heard about you, I was a brand new nurse manager, and I had sent the first two nurses I was able to send to a conference, which was AMSN, and you were the keynote speaker, and they came back and said, You have to know this lady. And I have followed your work, gosh, that's probably been 15 years ago.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, it's been quite a while because I was speaking before I even started my company, and I do remember that. And I think you even reached out to me to say, Oh my gosh, I have my nurses, they attended. And I have been speaking for AMSN for a long time. And it's just med surge nurses are near and dear to my heart. And I just, and I love how this, you start, you connect with someone in a way that is very, I don't know, distant. So you heard about me through them, and then you followed me. And now we've been, I consider you a friend and colleague for the last couple of years. It's so cool how it ends up that way. And when I was looking at it, okay, who do I want to invite? Especially because of your role now as the CEO and founder of We Rise Up. I did something very similar, I think similar, where I work full time. So you had all of these amazing big jobs. Okay? So, you were the senior director of nursing at Ascension. You actually did work for AONL. You were the education director for them, responsible for developing and implementing, and evaluating AONL's educational programs, and I know you've had a lot of other leadership roles. So I have to ask, what prompted you to start your own company? Because I did it, but I'm curious, why did you start your own company?

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Oh, man. I never would have dreamed that I would have landed here. I thought AONL was it for me. Such a dream! And I am forever grateful for that organization. So a little bit, a small version of the story. I was introduced to AONL whenever I started as a participant in their fellowship. I was creating leadership development succession planning in Knoxville, Tennessee, at the hospital that I worked at, and so that was the pinnacle, and I really thought that would be the top of my career. It opened all the doors, all the networks, and along the journey, as I was doing my doctoral work, I wanted to help new nurse leaders transition into practice because they hand you the keys. As you know, we've both been nurse managers, and they hand you the keys. And so, at the time, I was implementing a nurse residency program, and I said, This is great. I'm very passionate about this work, mostly the work that you do, incivility and bullying, very much impacted me as a new grad, but I thought, I really want to do this work for leaders. Fast forward, I get the opportunity to work at AONL and bring this vision to life, and I get to run the fellowships that changed my entire career trajectory. And along the way, and I love what they do, I thought I was so privileged to be able to be part of that program, to have an organization that supported it, that had funding. And I wanted to see new names, new faces, people that maybe didn't have the opportunity to do a fellowship that exposes you to all these things. How could we incorporate that for everyone? Because everybody deserves access, and so I began dreaming about that. I never imagined I would leave AONL, and I thought, I'll learn how to scale and spread and work among this roster of people that I just so look up to. And when I named the company, We Rise Up, it's really about surrounding yourself with others that we're rooting for each other, we're cheering for each other. And I think that's why I'm so thankful to to have people like you in my circle, like you said, you started this the same journey. I cannot do this without an army of people who are willing to give me real feedback on how I can do this meaningful work, and we've genuinely have the same purpose. We're all trying to help each other. And so I love that I get to do this.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I have, so I love it when I get these little goosebump moments. I just got that one because there's no way any of us can be successful in anything if we don't surround ourselves with people who want us to succeed, who want us to actually do well on all the work that we do. And you're passionate, too, about incivility. That's the opposite of what we're talking about it. And I've been very fortunate to have very similar to you, had opportunities that I never realized were there, and they opened up a whole other world for me. And that was, in a way, how I got my first taste of what it would be like to do things on my own. It was actually through AMSN. I submitted an abstract. I was, I was, I know diabetes so well, so I was like the diabetes expert as an educator, but I wasn't a certified diabetes educator. I just, I know the pancreas and liver and insulin and all of that. So, I submitted an abstract, never thinking they would accept it. They accepted it. Thinking I was in the small room doing a little concurrent session, I was in the big room, and there were 700 people in my audience, and I thought, Oh my gosh. And I did the presentation, and it was AMSN who called me two months later, and they said, You had the best evaluations we've ever had of anybody who's ever spoken here, and so we want you to speak next year. And they gave me a topic, and then they said, We want you to be faculty for us and teach med-surge certification review courses and on. And I had never experienced anything like that. The door opened, I walked in, and then so you just never know where your next opportunity will be. And sometimes it starts out, and I'm sure, Crystal, there's fear there. Okay? There's a little bit of fear, like, what the heck am I doing? What makes me think I can actually do this? But it takes courage to put yourself out there and say, I'm doing, this is why I'm doing it. And you're doing that right now with We Rise Up. And I so admire you for taking that leap of faith similar to what I did; took the leap of faith, and I quit a really great job that I love to start this company 13 years ago and never would have imagined it would become what it is today. But it's not easy, is it?

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Oh, absolutely not. And it requires crazy courage and a team of people that really have your back.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, and there's people on your team who are actually helping you to do the work, but then it's those leaders, those mentors. And because you and I share such a similar passion for civility and leadership and developing our leaders and giving them the tools and the skills and knowledge and the support that they truly need to step up and become the leaders that they have the potential to become. I know you're talking to a lot of leaders out there, so if we want to now shift the conversation to bad behavior, okay? When you take a look at all the leaders you've talked to, what are you seeing out there? Why are leaders not addressing disruptive behaviors?

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Oh, such a great question, and the theme is pretty consistent. And this transverses the pandemic, it's gotten worse, I think, since we're afraid of losing people. And where are we going to get those people? So that's one thing. We're afraid of low staffing. Where are we going to replace this person? Another thing is really the desire to be liked. And I see that a lot in new leaders. So, I love to work with leaders at all levels. But I have to tell you, my real passion is that front-line leader, the nurse manager, or the charge nurses; those are the ones that the day-in, the day-out there having the greatest impact, and they really want to be liked. And there's also this amount of it may be normalized, this behavior is normalized. We say, Oh, she's a good nurse, or we just, we tolerate this. And if they even recognize it, if it's not normalized and they recognize it and they're afraid, they don't have the courage and the skill set to have the conversation, is what I'm finding. And it doesn't matter where I go, what part of the world, what part of the country, the top two things I'm asked to talk about is how do I have a difficult conversation? And then the second is finance. But the difficult conversation, and it's so fruitful each time that we have that conversation, it really is so practical to just sit down with someone and have a, I think most people get out of bed every day to try to do a good job. And so do they recognize that what's happening, how it's having an impact. So I would say if there's anything that we can do is help develop those leaders to have those conversations, and it's not just the formal leader; it's got to be everybody on the team has to be willing to have that conversation. It's a two-way street of feedback of how do we help one another.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, you're ticking all my boxes. You know this, okay? Like, we're seeing this too where these issues were there pre-pandemic. It's just the pandemic exaggerated them. And we also see that, especially in the staffing crisis. And what we're noticing, too, is that if you look at nurses, we'll just say nurses in any department, it used to be you had some new nurses, some nurses who had been there a few years, maybe 8 to 10 years, 10 to 15 years, and then you've got the ones that have been there for 25 years. Now, you've got brand new in 25 years. You don't have anything in between hardly. And sometimes those been there for 25 years are sometimes the ones who are clinically competent. However, they're that great nurse but people. Leaders are so afraid to say anything because they can't afford to lose that competent nurse, which you and I are so. We both know that's faulty thinking. And without equipping them in how to have those conversations, they do what's comfortable. They do nothing. And I just read an article you're talking about: they really want to be liked by their people. And I have said this numerous times: it's better to be respected than liked. But I want to be liked. I want people to like me. And you know how you've heard of FOMO: Fear of Missing Out. I just read an article last week in the Harvard Business Review that talked about FOPO: Fear of Other People's Opinions. And I don't know, I never heard that before. And I thought, wow, that is so me and so many of the leaders who I talk to. Like it is totally an issue that I have to. If somebody posts something negative on social media, something that we write, or they email me back, I get a surge of hydrochloric acid in my stomach, and I'm like, Oh no, somebody doesn't like me. And I'm, and a lot of leaders have that, too. So how are you helping them to have those difficult conversations and recognize that it's okay if not everyone, quote-unquote, likes you, have the difficult conversations because more people will respect you if you do? So how are you doing that?

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
You know, I think the simplest way is to tie it back to purpose and mission and values. And I'm not talking about the things that we write on the walls. I'm talking about the things that we really live day-in, and day-out. And if you address, they know what the expectation is, right? These are the ways that we are agreeing that is acceptable to treat one another. And that's how you're going to address the gap. And when you bring it back to that and you're willing to sit down and have a conversation and forgive me, I can't help it, I love sports, I just love sports, and the analogy is just so perfect: if everyone on your team is committed to winning, I'm not going to go around and talk about you behind your back, gossip about how you're not doing a good job; I'm going to try to help support you to achieve this goal. And if we can bring it back to that, and sometimes you're going to mess up and that's okay. But we've got to be willing to have those conversations and say, Hey, here's how this impacted. And we're not doing justice to our patients, to one another, to those that we serve because X, Y, and Z, whatever it is. And most people will rise to the occasion, I find. And if they don't, that's okay. And sometimes they're grateful that you gave them the opportunity to exit somewhere that didn't fit. But I promise the team that's watching these behaviors not become addressed normalizes it as the behavior. So whether it's bullying or incivility or showing up late, right? If it's not addressed, everybody watches. You're afraid of losing that competent nurse. You're afraid of going short-staffed. You've ever lost someone on your team that is just toxic and instantly working with, instead of six people, working with five feels suddenly like you have ten?

Dr. Renee Thompson:
You got that right. I always say, I think most of us would agree. We would rather work short-staffed with amazing human beings than fully-staffed with lazy, lousy ones. You know it. If I, and I remember being a staff nurse, coming into work, looking at the assignment board not to see what patients I had, it was to see who I was working with and just not the number of people; it was who. Because that made all the difference on how we handled the work. And using sports as an analogy, or I think is perfect because it is about winning and how do we win? I think of a basketball team, and you might not be a good three-shot person, but you know, so when you've got the ball, and your teammate was good at three-point shots, you're going to give it to them instead of you trying from where you are, and because it's ultimately about the team winning. And recently, my daughter who's on our team, Courtney, she's our digital content specialist. So she puts a lot of our emails that go out to people, like every Tuesday and Thursday, we send an email out to our community, and she writes most of them. And she posted something that, it gave me goosebumps when I read it. And this was she put this together, and it basically said, I'm not your competition. I want you to win, too. And she wrote that. I was like, oh my God, brain blow. Because when you look at culture, and you look at people, and you look at even society right now, what we're seeing in healthcare is a reflection of what we're seeing out there in the world. But having that mindset, I'm not your competition, I want you to win, too, is a game changer, absolutely.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
I don't know how. It just seems like common sense to me. I hear that often. You're in the leadership development space. There's so many people in this space. You're all different and offer something incredibly different, and I admire them. And we have each other's backs wholeheartedly because we're just trying to make a difference. It's not pie.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Well. It's funny you say pie. So I'm part of the National Speakers Association, and I go to their conferences, and I participate, and I'm in some of their little masterminds. And think about this; these are thousands of people competing for keynote spots at conferences, and you would think they would hoard their information and hoard their strategies. It's the opposite. People share willingly because they actually use the example of a pie. It's there's only so many pieces in the pie. What they say is, Okay, just build a bigger pie, and that's what you're doing. And stepping into the leadership space is you're just building a bigger pie because there are plenty, plenty of opportunities. Our mutual friend Lori Armstrong, she's in the leadership space. I don't do what Lori does. Lori doesn't do what I do. And I'm glad to refer people to Lori. Well, what Lori does, it's not my thing. Like and Crystal, you said finance. Not my thing at all. I don't even balance my checkbook. I actually can't even get into my bank account. Okay, sorry, I can't. I'm good at math, but finance, that's my husband, all of that.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
It takes all of us.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes, And when you look at leadership. Okay, and we talked about why leaders aren't speaking up, why they're not. That's just the way it is. They're a great nurse bot and they're afraid of somebody leaving them. What is, like if you were going to pinpoint what should the leaders do? So the people that you're working with, when you take a look at how because I look at things like accountability and I look at like, how do you really empower the leaders to take responsibility for their culture? But then, how do the leaders help hold their teams accountable for professional behavior? So like, how do you define that? How do you work with your clients on this?

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
If you want to address the disruptive behavior and you're really committed to cultivating that healthy work environment, it's not really about pointing out who's messed up and punishing them. I'm seeing that a lot lately, and I don't know if it's just the season that I'm in, but it seems to be a theme. It doesn't matter if I'm talking to new grads or charge nurses or managers. I'm finding it's this punishment culture. And the point is really to figure out how to create a way where it's not about punishment to begin with. Everyone is accountable for whatever goal it is we're trying to reach. We're trying to have the highest quality outcomes. We're trying to have a place that everybody is excited to come to work. I want to be the place where I'm proud for my family members to receive care. And when I see things happen, let's say, outside of disruptive behavior to start with, because it's a little more cut and dry when your patient falls, right? I think there's this pressure on the leader to get to zero. And so sometimes they're ill-equipped, and they may go with a: you will be written up for this. When the reality is the nurse is just destroyed on the inside. Someone on my watch was harmed, and I thought I did everything that I could. And so it's creating this culture of I'm going to carry a big stick, and somehow that's going to help you address it, that's going to improve our outcomes. And really, it creates fear.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, it's the opposite. And I love to share a false story with you that really reinforces exactly what you just said. I was on site doing consulting, and I was there in the morning when the manager walked in the department. She walked right into the nurse's station, and she said, Who had this patient last night? Because there was a patient who fell. And this nurse, Me. And this is what she did. She said, Did you do the fall risk assessment? Did you do? Did you? And I'm watching the look on this nurse's face thinking, oh my God. Okay, I'm going to have to intervene here. So I actually pulled her aside after she calmed down, and I said, Do you think anybody wants their patient to fall? Okay? It's not like, Yay, my patient fell. No. I remember when my first patient fell, okay? I was sick to my stomach for days. And I said, Here's, and I know you have metrics and everything, fall scores and all of that. I said, here's a, and I taught her a better approach. What she could have done was walk in and said, Who had this patient? Me. Are you okay? Are you okay? Oh my gosh. I remember when my patient, especially if it's a brand new nurse, like, oh my God. Are you okay? Start with the heart. And then say, Okay, let's take a look. Do you know what happened? Can we walk through what happened? Because again, sometimes you can do everything right, and bad things still happen. We've all had that experience, and just, it's the approach. And you're right …, it's if your lens is looking for someone to blame or getting somebody in trouble or making sure that you're addressing this from the perspective of, again, punishment, you made a mistake versus a growth perspective. And again, approaching it as a are you okay perspective. I'm glad you're out there helping these leaders because they need the help, because this manager had no idea that her approach was in any way harmful.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
No. And the way that you brought that up is did you do this? Was the battle on that? Was this one, right? Rather than an approach it from an are you okay, of course, is always first. But then let's talk from like a coaching perspective. Tell me your story. Is there something that we missed that could have been preventable? How do you think we could have done this differently, right? Now, whenever you're talking about incivility and bullying, it, I think it's a little more challenging, except the conversation really is not. It is, still starts with help me understand. Let them tell you the story, and then you've got to get those leaders comfortable. Like I talked about, addressing that gap between the expectations and the actual performance. I don't think that people come in to make their coworkers miserable. There are some bullies out there that are heatedly, intentionally harming people, and they are aware. But for the most part, it's, I was afraid I had an emotional outburst. I've got to help work on my emotional intelligence. I didn't recognize how that impacted everyone. Most of the time, when you hold people to that standard, and when we started the conversation, you mentioned looking at the schedule to see who you're working with. And I've used this example a lot when I'm helping to develop people's ability to have these hard conversations, and I had a coworker like that. And I would get sick to my stomach as a charge nurse, knowing that she was going to be on the team that day. And one of the first times I was courageous enough to have a conversation and just say, Help me understand. And I didn't do it my very first go at it. It got worse before it got better. I tell you today, we are the closest of colleagues. She is my succession plans in leadership and has done outstanding things to impact the profession and I wanted to call in …

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I'm telling you, I know it. I know what that feels like, but oh my gosh, so you told her the truth. You cared enough about her to tell her the truth. Maybe you didn't care enough about her back then, but you cared enough about yourself to say something to her, and you had a great outcome. And it's, to reinforce that: people don't, aren't always aware of how they come across. And if nobody's willing to say anything, that's how we end up normalizing deviant behaviors because nobody says anything to them, and they think it's okay.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Yeah, they genuinely are clueless of how it's having an impact on others, which blows my mind all the time. But sometimes, it really is true. And I think it's so important to mention equipping that nurse leader because they're role modeling it, and what they do and how they handle it becomes how everyone around them. And you mentioned the workforce; they're inexperienced across the board. So they're watching everything that you do. If you are modeling how to do that, then you start to create this culture where we can hold each other accountable because it can't just be the leader. They cannot be the only one. We have to be able to show up for one another and say, Hey, did you know how this went? Because this is not the behavior that I would have and be proud to have my mom be a patient here, or not the behavior I would have, and I feel good going home at the end of the day, saying I did something great for my teammate here.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah. And when we take a look at, you had mentioned earlier the gap between the expectations and where they are and then just setting that precedence that in this department, in this space, we keep saying it's we're all on the same team. This is what winning looks like. Okay, we want all of us to feel good about the work that they've done, even in a crisis situation when the unit was crazy. And that requires that we, every single person on the team, is willing to give and receive feedback to each other. Because you're right: it cannot just be the boss, but it starts with the boss.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
100% does.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Starts, but then in creating this culture of peer-to-peer accountability and feedback. And the more I even learn about feedback and I love the book by Kim Scott called Radical Candor, I care enough about you to tell you the truth; that's where that comes from. And just being willing to tell the truth. But doing so in a place of caring, kindness, forgiveness, grace, and that's for your coworkers and for yourself. And again, though, Crystal, as you said, the leader is the role model.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Yes, and equally as important as being able to give it is being able to receive it, and it's hard.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
So have you seen this, with the leaders you've been working with, is this reluctance to admit that they don't know something, reluctance to admit that they're not skilled at something, that they're struggling with something because there's almost I've seen this, I don't know if it's really a competition between leaders, but there's, okay, we know employees can be disruptive, but the leadership team, leader to leader, there could be some issues there too. So, are you finding that as well?

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Yeah, absolutely. And you just nailed it when I was thinking back to my work to help new managers transition, and I was one of those promoted from within. So tough leader peers. What I didn't anticipate is that peer-to-peer relationship as a manager or in any level, to be frank, that I've been in. But it hit me hard when I walked in and thought, Wow, we are not very kind to one another. You may come in to see Night Shift at 2 a.m., and you're leaving at 2 p.m., so you put in a long day, and your coworker says, Oh, what are you working? Banker's hours? We're just not kind to one another. And I think there's not enough safe spaces for us to talk to one another as leaders. Because when you do create these environments and it's, Oh, I love to do it. And I could argue, is it better to do an organizational we're all together, we all work in one organization development course versus come together with people all across the country and learn best practices? But regardless of which, they all find out, we're struggling with the exact same problems. And I don't know why we pretend that we're great at everything because we do not know everything, and someone on our team is going to be exceptional at finance, and someone's going to be exceptional at delivering hard conversations, and why we don't just come together in that safe space and say, We're all trying to win this thing together. We wear the same jersey. You have been successful in your department dealing with this. Your retention is the best. What are you doing? Instead of now, I've got this, I've got this. It's like, we don't want anyone to see our vulnerabilities, but we are human.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah, and that is so powerful. And as you're saying that I'm thinking of all the leaders out there right now who were working with, who are not working with, who also struggle with this. But going back to the beginning of this conversation, Crystal, so you and I having our own business, and it's the same thing. It's like, boy, we're all struggling with the same thing. And so finding the right marketing person. Okay? How do you get out there on social media? How do you get clients? How do you? We all struggle with the same thing. And being in a place where you can say, Yes, I'm struggling with this and having someone. So your circle has to be broad enough that it's got more than two people in it, and it also, as you said, it has to be safe that I can say I felt like quitting giving up yesterday, and that's true. Yesterday, I had a moment, and I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't think I can handle this anymore. And then somebody talked me off the ledge, okay? My friends talked me off the ledge. It happens like, oh my God, I felt that way too. It was, I was talking to somebody who said, It was easier being a chief nurse executive than it is running my own business. I'm like, I know, but the point is to find those safe spaces, even if it's not at work, find them outside of work. Is it your association? Are there people there? Like, again, I'm part of the National Speakers Association. I have safe places right there where I can talk to people. Whether you're a nurse manager, there's got to be like, you have to proactively seek it. If you're not getting it in your organization, you have to seek other people who want you to win, who are not going to compete against you, that you can be honest about what you're struggling with. And that's, I think, why people like you, you know, you started your own company; it's for those leaders who maybe they even have that at work, but they need more, or they don't have that at work, and they're looking for that help so that they become better leaders. And so Crystal, as we start wrapping up and we're talking about healthy work cultures, what would you say is the single most powerful strategy or thing that a leader can do right now to cultivate a healthy work culture?

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
One single most powerful thing. I'm going to have to go with the advice that my brother, when I called him, was something difficult. His response may hate it. He says, Crystal, that sounds like an inside job. So starting by looking in the mirror and saying, How am I doing with the accountability? And these are the goals that I'm saying I want. I want this healthy work environment. I want a place that I come to work, and I'm not dreading to be with the the person beside me. I want the best outcomes. What am I personally doing to do that? And then evaluate yourself and your behaviors. Am I allowing gossip? I might not be the one gossiping, but if I'm allowing it, I'm diminishing trust. I'm breaking down that ability to have safe conversations and then having those skills and the courage to speak up. You mentioned one earlier, probably my favorite is Brene Brown, she says, Clear is kind. And it is. But you do have to have that skill set to have that conversation because like we talked about, it's all in the approach and the delivery. And then I think lastly, these are all within that working on yourself, do you know what your own values are, and are you true to those? And it's your own personal values and the values that you bring to your job that you can't just shake. But kindness is one of mine.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
… If you're watching this Crystal and I both have getting … on.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Yes. Go see Renee at the next day …

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yes. You give things away.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
But you have to evaluate yourself. And if you are a leader, everyone is watching you. You're on stage. Like it or not, that is the truth. And we say: what you permit, you promote. And so I would say the single most powerful thing you can do is work on yourself.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Wow. I had another little goosebump moment because when you said it's an inside job, like that's where you start. I remember my business coach sharing this with me that he said anytime I had something I was struggling with my team, with growing my business and just managing it all, he said, Always ask yourself, what about my leadership is impacting this? What about my leadership? And I said to my husband, actually, this morning we were taking a walk, I said, I'm the common denominator in all of my challenges, like it's me. I mean, I need to work on me and figure out. And leaders, if those of you who are listening, it's, am I maybe not having honest conversations with people? Am I contributing to the things that are frustrating me in some way? But Crystal, you're basically saying turn the mirror back on yourself first. And that's not to say, Oh, it's your fault. It's not from a blaming perspective. It's from a think about as a leader, we fall into these positions, sometimes happenstance or some of us really want to become leaders, others we're next in line. And that's just the way it is. But how do you become a leader who can cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture, in general, people feel good about working there? It really does start with you.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
It does.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Ah, this has been so great. All right. So, if people want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
There's several ways. I'm most active on LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn. I also have a website: DrCLawRN.com; a dear friend of me, coined that when I finished. So it's easy to remember DrCLawRN.com, and I'm active on other social media accounts as well, but honestly, reach out anyone. I say it all the time. I genuinely mean it. If I can help, my superpower is my network, and so I want people to know that they're not alone. There are resources to help equip you, empower you. You may feel like you're the only person that's dealing with this, but you're not alone. So please reach out. I would love to connect.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Yeah. There are a gazillion of us out there. And even though you might think some of us are outwardly look like we've got it all together, we don't. Okay? We all struggle in some way. And that's why, especially being a leader today is more challenging than ever before. And that's why it's even more important to really get together with other people who do truly want you to win. And I highly recommend you go to Crystal's website. She's got a ton of resources on there. We'll have all of the links in our show notes. I'm also going to put the link to that book I mentioned, Radical Candor. I'm always talking about radical candor, and I'm going to put a link to our Be Kind button. So we give them away at conferences, but we also sell them as a company. And we just had somebody order like 500 of them to give out to their employees. It's one of those things where when I'm wearing this button, it reminds me to be kind, because sometimes I'm not always as kind as I know I should be. And I think somebody's going to have a harder time being mean to me if I'm wearing a big be kind button. Somebody actually said to me, You should blow it up, like it needs to be huge so that people can actually see it. But we'll have all of those links in the show notes when this episode airs. And Crystal, I just really want to thank you for being on my show and for the amazing work that you're doing, the work that you've already done as a leader, but now how you're taking everything that you've learned and you are really making a difference, especially as you said for these frontline leaders who need the help now more than ever before. So thank you for this amazing work that you do.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
Oh, thank you so much. It's such a privilege just to have a conversation with you. We could talk for hours.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
I know, I know, it's like we'll have coffee, and they can go into late afternoon, and we can maybe have some wine later. Those are my two favorite drinks. I used to tell my girls for holiday, Give me something black, something red. So get me coffee, because I love good coffee, and I love really good red wine. So maybe that'll be another. Maybe instead of coffee and conversations, cocktails and conversations.

Dr. Crystal Lawson:
That's fun.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Okay, count me in. So, thank you again, Crystal. And thanks to any of you who are listening right now or watching. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here, for taking time out of your crazy busy schedules to do something that's going to help you to become a better leader who can cultivate a healthier work culture. And if you like this podcast, if you can, please rate it. We'd love it, five-star rating, but only if it's true. Make sure you post a review and then share it with others. The more people post reviews, rate, and share, the more likely it is that a leader who needs this help will find us. Okay? Because you know, you've got all those algorithms. But we're just really incredibly grateful to all of you listeners who are on the same journey trying to cultivate a healthy work culture. Thanks for being here, everyone. Take care.

Dr. Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found this podcast helpful, we invite you to click the Subscribe button and tune in every week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility, visit us at HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee, be kind, take care, and stay connected.

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