EP 20: Insights on Emotional Intelligence and Abrasive Leadership

Coffee Break_Bonnie Artman Fox: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

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Renee Thompson:
Plants thrive and grow in a peaceful, nourished environment, right? Well, it's the same with human beings. But what if that environment is not so peaceful? What if it's toxic? Welcome to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. In this podcast, you'll get practical, evidence-based strategies to help you cultivate and sustain a healthy and respectful work culture by tackling an age-old problem in healthcare: bullying and incivility. I am your host, Doctor Renee Thompson.

Renee Thompson:
Well, hi everyone, and welcome back to the Coffee Break podcast. As you all know, bullying and incivility right now are rampant, and it happens because it can. And it really takes dedicated leaders like you who are willing to actually do something about it. And that's what this podcast is all about, is equipping leaders like you with the skills and tools that they need to address workplace bullying and incivility. And today, we'll be talking with another amazing expert, Bonnie Artman Fox, who actually specializes in conflict, emotional intelligence, and abrasive leaders. And I often think, why would anybody want to do that on purpose? But we're going to find out from Bonnie, okay, all about these three areas that she really specializes in. And the other thing about Bonnie, so excited to share that she is also on our team here at the Healthy Workforce Institute, and she just brings a wealth of just really great strategies and content and has really helped our clients cultivate a healthy work culture. So Bonnie, thank you so much for being here today. Welcome.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Thank you. I'm honored to be here.

Renee Thompson:
Well, thank you, Bonnie. You and I have had so many conversations about the workforce and especially looking at abrasive leaders, so I can't wait to dig into this topic. Let me tell you a little bit more about Bonnie. Bonnie, as a workplace conflict expert and accredited Boss Whisperer®, Bonnie Artman Fox takes messy team conflict, and yeah, it's always messy, and brings teams together so that they can be more effective and productive. Drawing on decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse and licensed family therapist, Bonnie brings a unique perspective to equipping executive leaders with emotional intelligence skills. Her Leadership Turnaround Coaching program has an 82% success rate in guiding leaders to replace abrasive behaviors with tact, empathy, and consideration of others. The end result is a happy, healthy, and profitable workplace. Bonnie, as I said, joined the Healthy Workforce Institute in 2018 and is thrilled to contribute to the company's mission to eradicate bullying and incivility in healthcare. So, Bonnie, tell us a little bit about yourself and what made you get involved in these very heavy, difficult topics that other people would say, oh, heck to the no, no, not going down that path. What made you say, oh yeah, bring it on, bring it on?

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Well, it actually goes back to the days in my early nursing career when I had been recruited for my very first leadership position. And I was upfront and said, I'm not sure I'm the person for you. I don't have any leadership experience. And I was assured, oh, Bonnie, you'll be great. You're known for your excellent clinical skills. And besides, we're going to give you the leadership development. We'll give you everything you need to know. Well, of course, that was the first red flag that I ignored. And I take the job, I'm so excited. I wanted to grow, I wanted, I knew I had a lot to learn, and within a few months, there were closed-door meetings, decisions made without me. And when I asked about what was happening or about the leadership development, there was silence. It was causing me upset stomachs, anxiety, sleepless nights, and I knew that I could quit, but I loved the job. We were doing amazing work of equipping individuals to overcome addiction, helping families reconcile. And I am not a quitter, so I did the most logical thing at the time I went to therapy, and.

Renee Thompson:
That's logical for you, but not everybody else for sure, for sure.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
It was so way back that coaching really wasn't a thing back then, but I was determined. I knew I needed to grow, and I did not want to leave this opportunity to grow. And one of the first questions that therapist asked me was, how was conflict handled in your upbringing? And initially, I thought, what does my family have to do with this? And we always had dinners together. We had large family gatherings. We even went to Disney World, she said, that's great. But how was upsetness dealt with? How did people deal with differences? And then it dawned on me. Silence. She said something that was life-changing. Sounds like your family's in your office. And that became the foundation of the work that I do today that I don't.

Renee Thompson:
Can I interrupt you for a second? Okay, so those of you who are listening, and this was not planned, I promise. And I've learned a lot about conflict from Bonnie. And I learned this from you, Bonnie, where you said people handle conflict as adults, the way they saw conflict handled as they were growing up. We don't do a good job teaching adults how to deal with conflict. And when Bonnie talked about how conflict was handled in her family, I just have to put a plug-in for your book. So Bonnie wrote this book, it's called How Did My Family Get in My Office? We'll, absolutely have a link to this book in the show notes after this episode airs, but it was such a great read, and it reminded me of how conflict was handled while I was growing up. And you're absolutely right. We tend to use silence. We just ignore the problem, and it's not helpful, especially in healthcare.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Right, right. So I used that as an opportunity for my own personal growth to stand up for myself, to learn to overcome being that people pleaser and to become assertive and stayed in that work environment that also had an abrasive leader, that their behavior was allowed because they were a top performer and made the company a lot of money. And I didn't understand all that at the time, but I stayed, and I was determined to stay as long as I needed to stay to grow. And eventually, within a couple of years, I was offered a promotion with a significant pay increase. And that led to me then going on to become a licensed marriage and family therapist, and eventually to doing the work I do today of coaching leaders to replace abrasive behavior with emotional intelligence skills. I have been on the receiving end of that abrasive leader, and I want to end employee suffering as a result of abrasive leaders. And there is hope, change is possible. I actually love them. I know that sounds crazy, but they are really good people. They are good people. They lack self-awareness, and change is possible.

Renee Thompson:
Well, you bring up a really good point, and you know I love that you love them even though they're very difficult because I always say, you know, we're all born with goodness in us. We're all born with goodness, and then sometimes life just gets in the way. And you never know, people may have mental health issues, there might be some other reasons, but you bring up a really good point, and something that we talk a lot about when we're working with people is that we tend to say things like, oh, she's a great nurse, but. This person is a great fill-in-the-blank, but. We tolerate people's bad behaviors because, and I tend to say one of three reasons; either they're so clinically competent, and especially right now when we don't have, like we're losing our experienced people in healthcare and more and more new nurses, new physicians are entering who need time to gain their skills while they're really competent. So we justify their behavior, or they've been there forever, and they've got incredible tenure, you know, think about the university setting. But then exactly what you said, they bring in revenue, or their productivity is so good, or there's, you know, and we tend to ignore them. But what we don't understand is the line of bodies behind them as they continue to be abrasive, and so glad that you're doing this work. And yeah, I love the people who we work with too, even though sometimes I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe that they're acting that way.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
You know, you and I have talked often that we can all be abrasive from time to time. We can all have a bad day. And there's a spectrum of abrasive behaviors from, say, something that we regret to emotional outbursts to condescending comments to public humiliation. But the key is, do we have awareness of our words and our behavior on others? And once we catch ourselves, hopefully, we catch ourselves that we're then going back to make a repair and acknowledging, hey, that's not what I intended, or that came across in a way I didn't intend. I apologize. Can I have a do-over? That's ideally what we do as a self-aware person. An abrasive leader is so focused on getting results, attending to, checking things off their list, getting things done. Their focus is on those results and performance, and they minimize the importance of relationship and how they come across, and how it affects others.

Renee Thompson:
Yeah, that's so important, that self-awareness piece. And we talk about this a lot when we're looking at changing cultures. You can't just come in and say, okay, these are the strategies that we're going to start addressing bad behavior, and we're going to set these behavioral expectations. You first have to start by heightening awareness, and you know, heightening awareness starts with each one of us. Now, I've heard this many times, and I'd love your input on this. Where a leader will reach out, a nurse, a physician will reach out and say, I'm really struggling with this person, and I don't even think they're aware of how they come across. I tend to say, well, you need to have an honest conversation with them and, you know, give them some strategies. But I'd love your input on sometimes I think there are some people who just aren't capable of turning that mirror back on themselves. And then, how do you go about figuring that out? I'd love your input.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Well, before I answer that, I'd want to bring in a statistic from Tasha Yurek. She's an expert on self-awareness and has done a lot of research on self-awareness. And her research has shown that 95% of us think we're self-aware of how we're perceived, and yet only 10% to 15% of us actually are self-aware.

Renee Thompson:
So, wow, that's a huge gap.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Isn't that a huge gap? Yes. So to answer then your question, if someone doesn't have that self-awareness, yes, it always starts with that honest conversation for the manager of that individual to share in a way that I called an andboth conversation. We care about you. We value you, your contribution to the organization, and I've been receiving a series of complaints of how you treat people, and then giving examples of the behavior and asking, giving the benefit of the doubt, is everything okay? What's going on? And oftentimes a genuinely unaware person will focus on the denial of, well, it's everybody else's fault. They're stupid, they're lazy, and not look at themselves in the mirror. So let's say that manager then has that initial conversation and says this has to change. Maybe there is improvement for a while, but oftentimes then, old behaviors start kicking in. Manager again has another conversation. And if the manager is not surefooted clear, this behavior can't go on, more than likely, the behavior will continue. What needs to happen if there have been repeated conversations and the manager, the organization, genuinely values that employee wants to offer them support to turn around that behavior. That's where we can come in, in offering the Leadership Turnaround Coaching program that has an 82% success rate of helping people. If they are going to develop self-awareness, that program has the opportunity to give them the chance to turn around behavior.

Renee Thompson:
Yeah, you mentioned you sit down, you have an honest conversation with them, and then sometimes their behavior does improve, but then they really tend to, and this is what we see a lot, they go right back to their old ways. We have said this so many times. It's one of our like five common mistakes leaders make when addressing disruptive behaviors, and that they think one conversation is going to change somebody's behavior, and it doesn't. Now, all right, you're a leader. You have an employee who's very disruptive, but they're so good at their job, or they bring in a lot of revenue, or they've been there for a long time. You know, whatever the reason that you finally want to work on this person changing or adapting their behavior, so you have that honest conversation with them, you may follow up, well, okay, we're going to meet again, and we're going to go the end again and again. At what point, Bonnie and you said, yes, give them the resources, give them the support and help, at what point do you say, yeah, it's looking as though this person is not willing or capable of adapting their behavior? Like, how do leaders know at what point enough is enough?

Bonnie Artman Fox:
I revert back to the model of the coaching program. And I'm not trying to just promote the coaching program, but this is what I have found is the game changer. Part of the model is that, first of all, the manager has the backbone to intervene and says, we care about you, we want you, this can't go on. We want to offer you this coaching program that is optional. This is not a negative step. This is not in order to keep your job. We care about you, and it genuinely is coming from a place of humanity and compassion and offering the opportunity to change. Let's say then the leader, the abrasive leader, says, okay, I'll do it, but they're not looking for my services. They're not coming into this willingly.

Renee Thompson:
It's like, hey, Bonnie, I need your help.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
No, so because.

Renee Thompson:
I'm abrasive.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Right, right. They meet with me, and I say, I'm your co-researcher. I don't work there. I don't know about these negative perceptions. My role is to help you identify and understand what these negative perceptions are, how you're coming across that apparently you don't realize, and I do that by you giving me permission to interview several of your coworkers, that I then take out all identifying information and create a feedback summary that you and I will then review. Only you and I see this, and then that will reveal what are these negative perceptions about. I put the feedback summary, break it down into themes. When I share that with the abrasive leader, that's the game changer. When they see in a 15 to 20-page document that includes both their strengths and these negative perceptions, that by the end of that, usually at least, it takes two hours to review that with the leader, they say, this isn't who I want to be.

Renee Thompson:
Wow.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
I had no idea this is how I came across. I care about this place, I am loyal, I just thought I was trying to help the company succeed. I didn't realize how I was hurting people, and that's when they become engaged in coaching. And then the turnaround is very quick. Usually, if there is going to be a change, it usually is by the end of the third session. And now this again gets back to your question. If there's going to be change, we usually know fairly quickly. After roughly about 6 to 8 sessions, then I do another interview series with the people I initially interviewed, and I call that the pulse check summary, where I'm asking the same questions. What are the strengths of working with this person? What are your perceptions about their leadership style? And usually, I hear, I'm having a different conversation with you than I did a few months ago because they see the change. And I also hear, you know, they're changing. This is making me become more aware of how I'm showing up about my behavior. And the credibility of the organization goes up because something was done, and the admiration for the leader that they were willing to look in the mirror and take action. That's the really cool part about the positive ripple effect this can have throughout the entire organization. And back to your point, though, not everybody changes and we can only offer them the opportunity. One of the comments, I often hear them during the pulse check, is will they sustain the improvement. And as a part of the coaching, we also talk about a plan to sustain the improvement, and usually that they identify what that would look like for them. And usually, it's involving a circle of people who they genuinely believe have their back, that they know these people care about me. They're going to tell me the truth, and I'm receptive now that I'm self-aware. If I start slipping back into old behavior, I know that this circle of support will tell me the truth.

Renee Thompson:
Right, they'll call you out on it, call you out on your behaviors. I want to unpack a couple of things that you said. One is to clarify, we're talking, okay. If you're a manager and you have an employee, and that employee is, say, a staff nurse, that's a little different than if you're the VP of surgical services and your manager is the one who's abrasive, or you're a chief nurse or a CEO, or the chief medical officer, and your medical director in your emergency department is the one who's abrasive. And I want to clarify with what you're talking about, Bonnie, your abrasive leader coaching, that program is really designed for the leader who's being abrasive, not the employee.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Yes.

Renee Thompson:
However, same principles apply if you're the manager and your employee is acting in a way that's abrasive, is to give them that feedback, is to work with them. But then at some point to say, you know what, I don't think you're a good fit for this department anymore. And so we're going to excuse me for saying this, but therapeutically extract you, okay? Because I'm done with you. I've tried, but to do your due diligence. And I really appreciate that you say it has to come from a place of humanity.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Yes.

Renee Thompson:
And people are more willing to hear the bad stuff to get that negative feedback if they think you care about them and that you genuinely want them to succeed, that you're going to support them. But truly, it's up to them whether or not they are willing to receive the support. And act on it because you're so right. That whole ripple effect, the positive ripple effect that has especially, I think, of that physician or that I'll never forget doing consulting work. And there was one of the directors who was so abrasive. When I first met her, I clearly saw that she was part of the problem, okay, and then I had conversations with the chief nursing officer. But what I find is that the staff, they stop complaining about that person and they become complacent. They say, well, nothing's ever been done. But when they, and they will then blame the manager and say the manager never holds anybody accountable or this person, nobody's ever going to do anything about it. Meanwhile, they don't know what's happening behind the scenes, that there is some effort in trying to do something about it. It's when they see that behavior improve, when the people that this abrasive leader has to work with, when they start seeing evidence that they are working on it, that's when everything changes. It's a game-changer, you're right.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Yes, it is. Yes. Could I share a story of?

Renee Thompson:
Yes, please.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
A few years ago, a chief nursing officer contacted the Healthy Workforce about one of their newer managers who is a classic top performer, very conscientious, excellent nurse. It was her first management position, and on paper, she had all of the credentials. Interpersonally, she came across as cold, condescending, disinterested, disengaged. When her employees attempted to go to her and convey their concerns about staffing, and this was even before the pandemic, she did not respond to them. And I know that staffing is often an issue and concern for this department. Employees were starting to leave in droves, and the remaining nurses were genuinely concerned about their the patient safety and nursing license. They ended up going above their manager to their boss person above her and said, we need help here. It took that finally, then that they offered the coaching to this particular leader, and she felt so ashamed. She almost quit on the spot. And it wasn't because, yes, she lacked self-awareness, but it wasn't that she was your classic abrasive. She genuinely lacked the interpersonal skills of coming across in a caring way and showing interest in her employees, and communicating with them where she thought, if I hold up behind the door of my office and communicated by email and to let them know things I'm working on, that was enough. And they didn't know all the efforts that she was making to address the staffing. Through the coaching, then she did gain that self-awareness and went on to become known as the go to unit. That it went from people leaving in droves to a wait list for her unit. Because she took this work so seriously, she genuinely did not have the interpersonal skills. And this goes back to what she saw modeled in her upbringing. She was the oldest of several kids, and the way that in order to get things done, she had to take care of them, and wasn't used to collaborating or asking others for help, and didn't realize the importance of communication. So it wasn't coming from a place of ill intent. It was genuinely a lack of awareness. But it had a negative impact on her employees.

Renee Thompson:
Absolutely.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
That organization retained an excellent nurse, and she became an empathic, healthy leader. And last I heard from her was just a few years ago, and she was continuing to thrive in the organization. So we never know when we give people a chance. And because coaching is optional, people can stop at any time, whether that's the individual or the organization, and saying, we're not seeing improvement, and then the organization can know we tried. We gave this person, right, the resources to help them turn around this behavior. And as you said earlier, it's up to them ultimately.

Renee Thompson:
Sure. I remember you talking about her when you first started working with her and the challenges and how she was a top performer and more of a, I'm going to be productive and check, check, check, check, check everything. And I'm going to make sure I do all the things that I'm; it's really the administrative aspect of being a manager, but what she was missing was how to be a leader, because that requires another skill set, and how she really was able to step up and learn and adapt and had that reinforcement from her executives. That truly demonstrated that they valued their people and not everybody is perfect, and I think it's giving everybody a chance first. We tend to condemn people right away. Oh, they're abrasive. Oh, they're toxic. And like, we want to get rid of them right away. And I will say there are times I'm guilty of that too. Then I try to do that, step back and say, wait a minute, what's going on? Is there a reason for this? What has been tried before? Has anybody ever actually sat down, right, and had a conversation with this person about their behavior? Or are they talking about this person behind their back all the time? And to give that person the benefit of the doubt that just by being honest with them. But then you can't just say, yeah, you're abrasive. I needed to be honest with you. You need to change, bye. I mean, you have to give them the coaching and the support that they need. And one of the things that you do as part of this bonding that I think is incredibly important, is that there are consequences if they do not change their behavior and that the organization is willing to let someone go after they've done their due diligence because if you don't have a set of consequences lined up ready to go, if they're not truly, and I don't know if this is the right way of saying it, an authentic human being, they, you know, the people that we see and you see, Bonnie, most when they get this feedback, they're like, oh my gosh, I don't want to be perceived this way. I want to work on this. There are a few people, they just aren't capable. And if you don't put those consequences in, there's no incentive for them to change.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Yes, and a key aspect of this model working is the manager. The person that the abrasive leader reports to has to have a backbone, has to have both the care and compassion to offer this help, at the same time, be very firm in, this behavior can't go on, and something will happen if the behavior continues. Whether you choose to be involved in coaching or not, that's up to you. The expectation is the behavior changes. We want to help you. It's up to you. And some people, and there have been instances where I have worked with people that they have chosen not to change. And I see it's really they are so afraid of letting go of those self-protective behaviors that the abrasiveness covers up their inner hurts unresolved. I call them wounds, unresolved scars that whether it's from our upbringing or from a past when somebody was bullied themselves and they just believe this is the way you treat people. Some people are genuinely so afraid of looking at that, and we respect that. That change may not happen.

Renee Thompson:
Yeah, but I'm just going to reinforce what you said is give them a chance, but give them a chance and then give them the resources and the support that they need. And as we start wrapping up, I just want to reinforce something. You may not be in the position to help someone in your organization get the type of coaching that they need. I know a lot of organizations, they either have an organizational development department that offers coaching. They may have another way that they could support their leaders. However, if it's an abrasive leader who, again, is either been there for a long time, extremely competent, bringing in a lot of revenue, I would highly encourage you to at least consider some type of external support and resources, and I've been privy to Bonnie's work, and it's just been transformational. When you talk about how this one leader, and I know there's been more transformed, I get goosebumps every time you talk about it, and I could see your face and how you light up when you see that transformation. Just imagine being that leader who was one way and didn't even realize it, and who was able to actually face themselves in the mirror with help and then end up in a such a better place. And I can't even imagine for this leader, not only was her work environment, work life improved, but I'm sure it transcended into her personal life too.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
It did very much. Yeah.

Renee Thompson:
Well, as we wrap up, Bonnie, if we have a listener right now who knows someone in their organization who fits the criteria of this abrasive leader, what would you recommend for them as a first step? How could they start the process of looking at getting this person some help?

Bonnie Artman Fox:
As we said earlier, first, it starts with having that honest conversation with care and seeing their humanity and saying you may not be aware of how you're coming across. This is how you're negatively perceived, and I want to offer you some help to turn that around. So that would be the first thing. Secondly, when you go into that conversation, I call it stay in your own skin, that it is very likely that the abrasive leader is going to be in denial, push back, turn it around, maybe even focus on you as the problem, and you may be afraid even of them retaliating in some way by simply bringing this up. Stay sure-footed, grounded. And I love this phrase by Roshi Joan Halifax, she's a meditation teacher, and she calls this strong back, soft front where we have a backbone, we're grounded, we are clear about who we are, and in a soft front that we are carrying about this as one human being to another, that I want to help you. I'm giving you this feedback because I genuinely care, and I don't think this is who you want to be. That's the second strategy. Number three, I call it Resolve to Evolve that we all are growing. We all have blind spots. We all have areas that we can improve on, and be willing to receive feedback ourselves. You may want to practice this honest conversation with a trusted colleague to get feedback about how you're coming across, being aware of your body language, your facial expression, your tone of voice so the abrasive leader hears your intent that you genuinely care about them. You want to help them because again, you, as the manager who are intervening, are really the linchpin. Your willingness to have that backbone and intervene and hold the leader accountable for transform behavior and for not only their performance, also their behavior and how they treat people. Those would be my three strategies that I would encourage someone listening right now to pay attention to.

Renee Thompson:
Oh, so helpful. So clear, not easy to do, but, or I should say and, I'm trying not to use but, worth it, though. It's worth it. If you can just deal with that discomfort for a period of time and have the courage to engage in these conversations that are super uncomfortable, oh my gosh, it's so worth it when you can see someone turn around like the leader you mentioned, turn around, and you've seen so many others. I mean, in 82% success rate is pretty awesome. I just think we owe it to ourselves in healthcare to really take a look at some of the people who are really good at what they do. They just need the help to, their clinical performance may be great, now we need to help them with their behavior so that it's equally as great. So, Bonnie, can you tell our listeners how they can connect with you?

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Yes, thank you. My website is BonnieArtmanFox.com. And if you go to my website, I do have a free resource called Executive SOS: How to Eliminate Abrasive Behaviors with Your Top Performers. And that resource provides an outline and overview of the coaching program. And if that would be of benefit to you, then we can hop on the call and see if that would be a fit. And certainly, the work that we do with the healthy workforce is all about spreading kindness. And that's what I want to support people to do. And so believe in this mission of eradicating bullying and incivility in healthcare through kindness. Also, please connect with me on LinkedIn.

Renee Thompson:
Oh, great. Great. Yeah, we'll make sure that we have Bonnie's website where you can get that resource. Thank you. That's very generous of you. We will also have a link to her LinkedIn profile. And I did obviously have her book ready because it is actually on my nightstand and my special book section. How Did My Family Get in My Office? We'll have a link where you can purchase this book as well. And, you know, Bonnie's an avid reader, as a lot of you know, who listen to this podcast, I'm an avid reader. So, Bonnie, let's get a recommendation from you on, what book do you think everybody listening should read?

Bonnie Artman Fox:
The Outward Mindset: How to Change Lives and Transform Organizations. It is written by the Arbinger Institute, and it is, there's a series of books that they have written around helping leaders overcome their self-deception. And a lot of what we've been talking about today of how do we approach others who are difficult to get along with, has to do with our mindset, and The Outward Mindset is all about seeing people's humanity and taking the focus off of ourselves and helping people, caring about things from their perspective, and making our own adjustments based on what we hear and when we really listen to others, instead of going into conversations with our own agenda.

Renee Thompson:
I'm just imagining a world right now where if everybody read that and understood that and acted on it. Wow, it would be a pretty awesome world to live in, and thank you for that. I will definitely put that one on my list. And thank you again, Bonnie, for being a guest on our podcast. And I just, you know, encourage you to keep up the great work that you're doing related to emotional intelligence conflict, but especially abrasive leaders, because right now it is the leader who determines the culture in their department. And we need to make sure those leaders are fully equipped. And again, I appreciate so much the work that you do for us here at the Healthy Workforce Institute. So thank you so much.

Bonnie Artman Fox:
Thank you. It's truly an honor to be a part of the Healthy Workforce Institute. I do a lot of work with the Champion program, and what I love about that program is, it's the sustainability of reinforcing healthy behaviors. And I just want to give a plug for the champions. On a recent call, and this is the reality of how, you know, this is hard work, one of the leaders said, yes, we've made progress, but it has taken consistent, and it's taken consistent effort. We cannot back down. We have to stay consistent. So I want to encourage your listeners also that, let's rally together and continue our efforts to join Arms and staying consistent in reinforcing healthy behaviors.

Renee Thompson:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for that. You do a great job with our champions. And for those of you listening, our champions, the champion program that Bonnie is talking about, these are employees who have actually partnered with their leadership team to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture by addressing bullying and incivility. And it's just remarkable to see what they've done to the point where the leaders are no longer leading the charge. They're supporting the employees efforts to do that, and it's just it's a beautiful thing. We have had so many remarkable positive stories that have come out of it. And as you often say, Bonnie, it fills your cup, you know, certainly fills our cup to know that despite all the badness that's out there, there is such goodness. And sometimes all you have to do is look for it and encourage it, and boom, it's there. So thank you, Bonnie, for being here, for all the great work that you're doing. And I want to thank all of you who are listening to this right now for truly doing your part to stop the cycle of bullying and incivility in healthcare so that we can make healthcare a kinder, more respectful, and professional workplace. And just remember, you know, the way we treat each other is truly just as important, if not more important, than the good care that we provide. Thank you all for being here. Take care.

Renee Thompson:
Thank you for listening to Coffee Break: Breaking the Cycle of Bullying in Healthcare – One Cup at a Time. If you found these practical strategies helpful, we invite you to click the subscribe button and tune in every other week. For more information about our show and how we work with healthcare organizations to cultivate and sustain a healthy work culture free from bullying and incivility, visit HealthyWorkforceInstitute.com. Until our next cup of coffee, be kind, take care, and stay connected.

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